964 RS at Auction
Discussion
DiscoColin said:
I guess that the bottom line is that it is now so much cheaper to build a Carrera up to RS spec that that is what most people who want one are going to do. Clearly that will result in a lot of them being out there.
Genuine cars are out there you just need to buy From reputable specialists or get the car inspected. I agree there Lotus but what I am getting small frustrated at is and I do have to be careful so I don't get myself banned but there was another car that looked a great example from a VERY respectable dealer that I found out was not all it seemed thanks to this forum and the PCGB forum.
As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
berty37 said:
I agree there Lotus but what I am getting small frustrated at is and I do have to be careful so I don't get myself banned but there was another car that looked a great example from a VERY respectable dealer that I found out was not all it seemed thanks to this forum and the PCGB forum.
As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
Yes but thankfully threads like this hopefully highlight not only the cars to avoid but also the dealers that attempt to sell them. As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
Sorry state of affairs frankly but it's the world we live in. If you dig deep you find all that glitters may not be good so the advice is whoever you deal with you need an Independant inspection. By the way did hexagon call back to confirm the matching numbers situation ?
berty37 said:
I agree there Lotus but what I am getting small frustrated at is and I do have to be careful so I don't get myself banned but there was another car that looked a great example from a VERY respectable dealer that I found out was not all it seemed thanks to this forum and the PCGB forum.
As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
Don't trust any of them. I know 3 that have been naughty boys in the past...and have all been caught but still trade...and ask big numbers for their cars. As I said on this one I could be barking up the wrong tree totally but if I am not then I think these dealers ought to be ashamed of themselves because it's proven here the Porsche community is smaller than what they think it is and it becomes difficult to build a good reputation after it's been called into question.
Slippydiff said:
It's not the nicest of cars out there (the interior is tired) add in what appear to be question marks over its provenance and Hexagons slightly OTT pricing and it looks expensive for what it is. I'd suggest it's £20K overpriced even if it IS matching numbers and has the correct mag wheels.
If the mag wheels are missing and the numbers don't match, it possibly needs to be closer to £100k.
If the mags are misting and it's not matching numbers it's nothing near 100k . A genuine car maybe but not this car no way If the mag wheels are missing and the numbers don't match, it possibly needs to be closer to £100k.
DiscoColin said:
marky911 said:
I like the thrill of the search as much as the next guy, but I doubt even I could be bothered with the hassle of finding a good '64RS.
I guess that the bottom line is that it is now so much cheaper to build a Carrera up to RS spec that that is what most people who want one are going to do. Clearly that will result in a lot of them being out there.Slippydiff said:
Indeed it is MTR !
Who'd have thought a Mk1 996 GT3 would've had an asking price of nearly £60K eighteen months-2 years ago ? The asking price for the low mileage, comfort spec (with buckets) Guards red example that appeared briefly on here, then disappeared and reappeared at a dealer last year, was £50K from the dealer. It sold, and having seen it, I suspect it sold for close to the asking price.
The whole psychology around perceived values fascinates me. Where does it come from? Who sets the bar?Who'd have thought a Mk1 996 GT3 would've had an asking price of nearly £60K eighteen months-2 years ago ? The asking price for the low mileage, comfort spec (with buckets) Guards red example that appeared briefly on here, then disappeared and reappeared at a dealer last year, was £50K from the dealer. It sold, and having seen it, I suspect it sold for close to the asking price.
The 964RS is a great example. From 25k to this? In what, 8 years? Why?
Don't get me wrong, I love them too, and am kicking myself for not buying one.
But heres the big question. If they were worth 15k now, would I feel the same? Thats the mind f
k.mollytherocker said:
The whole psychology around perceived values fascinates me. Where does it come from? Who sets the bar?
The 964RS is a great example. From 25k to this? In what, 8 years? Why ?
Because the enthusiasts, the press and the collectors have seen the future (and the present)and realised that it's not actually that bright ? The 964RS is a great example. From 25k to this? In what, 8 years? Why ?
It's become all too clear over the past couple of years that the latest cars have become increasingly digital. Superbly engineered and increasingly fast though the new breed of "affordable" sports cars (such as the 991 GT3) have become, they just don't "do it" for many.
There comes a point (the Gen 1 997 GT3 for me) whereby the challenge of driving something so accomplished on the road loses much or all of its appeal. Personally I'd rather drive something slower and more challenging that feels like it's doing 120mph, than actually driving something that'll do 120mph with such consummate ease that the whole process becomes an exercise in trying to make the car feel alive.
I've been a massive supporter of the marque for the last 35 years, and I've only managed to indulge my whims over the past 12 years. But the new stuff leaves me very, very cold. I'm sure the 997 3.8 RS/4.0 RS and the 991 GT3, along with the 991 Turbo S etc are eye wateringly fast and accomplished, but surely you should be able to enjoy and understand their raison d'etre on the road as well as on the track ? My experiences of a lowly Gen 1 997 GT3 (I've had two of them) led me to believe that whilst they were very efficient road cars, they lacked the character, engagement and tactility of the earlier cars.
Slippydiff said:
mollytherocker said:
The whole psychology around perceived values fascinates me. Where does it come from? Who sets the bar?
The 964RS is a great example. From 25k to this? In what, 8 years? Why ?
Because the enthusiasts, the press and the collectors have seen the future (and the present)and realised that it's not actually that bright ? The 964RS is a great example. From 25k to this? In what, 8 years? Why ?
It's become all too clear over the past couple of years that the latest cars have become increasingly digital. Superbly engineered and increasingly fast though the new breed of "affordable" sports cars (such as the 991 GT3) have become, they just don't "do it" for many.
There comes a point (the Gen 1 997 GT3 for me) whereby the challenge of driving something so accomplished on the road loses much or all of its appeal. Personally I'd rather drive something slower and more challenging that feels like it's doing 120mph, than actually driving something that'll do 120mph with such consummate ease that the whole process becomes an exercise in trying to make the car feel alive.
I've been a massive supporter of the marque for the last 35 years, and I've only managed to indulge my whims over the past 12 years. But the new stuff leaves me very, very cold. I'm sure the 997 3.8 RS/4.0 RS and the 991 GT3, along with the 991 Turbo S etc are eye wateringly fast and accomplished, but surely you should be able to enjoy and understand their raison d'etre on the road as well as on the track ? My experiences of a lowly Gen 1 997 GT3 (I've had two of them) led me to believe that whilst they were very efficient road cars, they lacked the character, engagement and tactility of the earlier cars.
I think they are very special cars and would love to own but BUT a genuine one not one that purports to be something it isn't.
You'd be pretty hacked off if you paid top quality diamond money for something you then realised was cubit zirconia.
Maybe someone located the original engine for this car maybe they haven't.
Given the previous threads about the car it's important it's checked thoroughly.
Price wise they are now out of some peoples reach which makes their audience smaller so hopefully it will make the whole buying process more transparent
You'd be pretty hacked off if you paid top quality diamond money for something you then realised was cubit zirconia.
Maybe someone located the original engine for this car maybe they haven't.
Given the previous threads about the car it's important it's checked thoroughly.
Price wise they are now out of some peoples reach which makes their audience smaller so hopefully it will make the whole buying process more transparent
For all the discussion chaps, I think we're missing a simple fact here: we aren't Hexagon's target market.
The European RS community were all aghast at the price they paid for that "heavily exercised" RS 3.8 at auction (Euro 270k, given it had been at a dealers in Germany for Euro 170k for most of the previous year) and then even more so at their asking price (over Euro 400k) but it has SOLD and it WAS a one owner car that looked niceish. I'm guessing these are going into the middle or far East where it would appear "shinyness" rather than provenance appears to matter most.
And also, these guys do have a history of identifying cheap areas of the market and organising a squeeze. (I'm told they single-handedly moved up the BMW Z8 market). And if you look at the RS 3.8 and consider what other very limited edition 911's are making ('73 RSR? £1mm+, '74 RS 3.0? £800k-£1mm) then there is an argument that these should be £400k cars as they priced it. But this for massive endless debate about desirability, value of money, are the older cars actually vaguely worth that much etc that we shouldn't get into.
I have to admit though I am interested to know if they've got a real engine and gearbox in this RS now as this car definitely didn't use to have the right ones. Let alone if they've "miraculously" found the originals which I'd guess were worn out on it's voyage to the moon and back suspension testing if I was being unkind...
But undoubtedly forums like this provide a vital service that the unwary enthusiast from our communities doesn't get caught out by dodgy dealers (although that sounds a bit like "it's ok to stuff a dubious car into Johnny Foreigner" I hope you know what I mean) . Keep up the good work.
All IMHO of course
Rick
The European RS community were all aghast at the price they paid for that "heavily exercised" RS 3.8 at auction (Euro 270k, given it had been at a dealers in Germany for Euro 170k for most of the previous year) and then even more so at their asking price (over Euro 400k) but it has SOLD and it WAS a one owner car that looked niceish. I'm guessing these are going into the middle or far East where it would appear "shinyness" rather than provenance appears to matter most.
And also, these guys do have a history of identifying cheap areas of the market and organising a squeeze. (I'm told they single-handedly moved up the BMW Z8 market). And if you look at the RS 3.8 and consider what other very limited edition 911's are making ('73 RSR? £1mm+, '74 RS 3.0? £800k-£1mm) then there is an argument that these should be £400k cars as they priced it. But this for massive endless debate about desirability, value of money, are the older cars actually vaguely worth that much etc that we shouldn't get into.
I have to admit though I am interested to know if they've got a real engine and gearbox in this RS now as this car definitely didn't use to have the right ones. Let alone if they've "miraculously" found the originals which I'd guess were worn out on it's voyage to the moon and back suspension testing if I was being unkind...
But undoubtedly forums like this provide a vital service that the unwary enthusiast from our communities doesn't get caught out by dodgy dealers (although that sounds a bit like "it's ok to stuff a dubious car into Johnny Foreigner" I hope you know what I mean) . Keep up the good work.
All IMHO of course
Rick
Slippydiff said:
Because the enthusiasts, the press and the collectors have seen the future (and the present)and realised that it's not actually that bright ?
It's become all too clear over the past couple of years that the latest cars have become increasingly digital. Superbly engineered and increasingly fast though the new breed of "affordable" sports cars (such as the 991 GT3) have become, they just don't "do it" for many.
There comes a point (the Gen 1 997 GT3 for me) whereby the challenge of driving something so accomplished on the road loses much or all of its appeal. Personally I'd rather drive something slower and more challenging that feels like it's doing 120mph, than actually driving something that'll do 120mph with such consummate ease that the whole process becomes an exercise in trying to make the car feel alive.
I've been a massive supporter of the marque for the last 35 years, and I've only managed to indulge my whims over the past 12 years. But the new stuff leaves me very, very cold. I'm sure the 997 3.8 RS/4.0 RS and the 991 GT3, along with the 991 Turbo S etc are eye wateringly fast and accomplished, but surely you should be able to enjoy and understand their raison d'etre on the road as well as on the track ? My experiences of a lowly Gen 1 997 GT3 (I've had two of them) led me to believe that whilst they were very efficient road cars, they lacked the character, engagement and tactility of the earlier cars.
Agreed, but there also becomes a point when the air cooled beauty you have sitting in your garage, becomes a liability to take out due to the rise in value. Unfortunately I have reached that point, which is both good and bad. It's become all too clear over the past couple of years that the latest cars have become increasingly digital. Superbly engineered and increasingly fast though the new breed of "affordable" sports cars (such as the 991 GT3) have become, they just don't "do it" for many.
There comes a point (the Gen 1 997 GT3 for me) whereby the challenge of driving something so accomplished on the road loses much or all of its appeal. Personally I'd rather drive something slower and more challenging that feels like it's doing 120mph, than actually driving something that'll do 120mph with such consummate ease that the whole process becomes an exercise in trying to make the car feel alive.
I've been a massive supporter of the marque for the last 35 years, and I've only managed to indulge my whims over the past 12 years. But the new stuff leaves me very, very cold. I'm sure the 997 3.8 RS/4.0 RS and the 991 GT3, along with the 991 Turbo S etc are eye wateringly fast and accomplished, but surely you should be able to enjoy and understand their raison d'etre on the road as well as on the track ? My experiences of a lowly Gen 1 997 GT3 (I've had two of them) led me to believe that whilst they were very efficient road cars, they lacked the character, engagement and tactility of the earlier cars.
Slippydiff, if the 993RS with the exchanged engine you refer to was the red one, then it is relevant that the original engine was a development engine (the number ended 102) and that a brand new bench run-in engine (for 5000Km) was fitted prior to saled from development, by Porsche. They would let the car go with all it's history, but not the engine 
On the subject of 2.7RS engines, the old mag crankcases were pushed to their limit -- I believe the 911 2.4S crankcases were 3R and 5R whilst the 2.7 engines were 7R versions --- all magnesium prior to the 3.0l Turbo crankases which were much stronger.
Hence it was not uncommon for companies such as Autofarm to fit a ready built replacement engine, mismatching numbers but not of course the type of engine.
I have both a '75 2.7 Carrera (RHD and original numbers) and a '73 LHD 2.4S o which the engine was replaced as above.
I asked Peter Morgan prior to purchase what the effect of this might be on the value of the car, --- in his view it was 10% max and reducing.
It is not unheard of for cars with mis-matched engine numbers to benefit form miraculous discoveries of the correct engine.
Conrad and Gruberstein (?) provided all the necessary information for the 2.7RS ...
On the subject of 2.7RS engines, the old mag crankcases were pushed to their limit -- I believe the 911 2.4S crankcases were 3R and 5R whilst the 2.7 engines were 7R versions --- all magnesium prior to the 3.0l Turbo crankases which were much stronger.
Hence it was not uncommon for companies such as Autofarm to fit a ready built replacement engine, mismatching numbers but not of course the type of engine.
I have both a '75 2.7 Carrera (RHD and original numbers) and a '73 LHD 2.4S o which the engine was replaced as above.
I asked Peter Morgan prior to purchase what the effect of this might be on the value of the car, --- in his view it was 10% max and reducing.
It is not unheard of for cars with mis-matched engine numbers to benefit form miraculous discoveries of the correct engine.
Conrad and Gruberstein (?) provided all the necessary information for the 2.7RS ...
ChrisW. said:
Slippydiff, if the 993RS with the exchanged engine you refer to was the red one, then it is relevant that the original engine was a development engine (the number ended 102) and that a brand new bench run-in engine (for 5000Km) was fitted prior to saled from development, by Porsche. They would let the car go with all it's history, but not the engine :
Morning Chris. It was your old car. I was trying to be discreet I remember the article on your car, more specifically the details of the engine swap and the fact it had been noted in the factory log appertaining to the car. As I said, if an engine swap can be genuinely verified by the factory, it's not a problem WRT to the car's value. If however the original engine/number has "miraculously appeared", I think it fair to say the impact on the car's value will be altogether different......
Slippydiff said:
Morning Chris. It was your old car. I was trying to be discreet
I remember the article on your car, more specifically the details of the engine swap and the fact it had been noted in the factory log appertaining to the car. As I said, if an engine swap can be genuinely verified by the factory, it's not a problem WRT to the car's value. If however the original engine/number has "miraculously appeared", I think it fair to say the impact on the car's value will be altogether different......
I agree in 2003 I blew engine on a GT2, Porsche arranged for a complete new engine. The original engine nos were retained. All correctly noted at the time...I remember the article on your car, more specifically the details of the engine swap and the fact it had been noted in the factory log appertaining to the car. As I said, if an engine swap can be genuinely verified by the factory, it's not a problem WRT to the car's value. If however the original engine/number has "miraculously appeared", I think it fair to say the impact on the car's value will be altogether different......
"Porsche themselves will retain an engine number"
Anyone recall the (not so long ago) Yukos sponsored Freisinger 911s? Every single race they went to, the had engines #1,#2 and the spare always had the same 3 engine numbers, no matter what got blown up at the prior race... made life easier even though customs carnets had virtually disappeared.
But very interesting that Porsche will do that for a road car.
Anyone recall the (not so long ago) Yukos sponsored Freisinger 911s? Every single race they went to, the had engines #1,#2 and the spare always had the same 3 engine numbers, no matter what got blown up at the prior race... made life easier even though customs carnets had virtually disappeared.
But very interesting that Porsche will do that for a road car.
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