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hotpowner
47 posts
39 months
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HoHoHo
8,318 posts
119 months
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I think that if the difference between losing say £10k and £15k over a three year period is the difference between buying and not buying, don't buy as you are on the edge of affording it, don't do it.
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ben_ek
Original Poster
56 posts
79 months
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it's not a case of affording it, it's a matter of making a good investment. i like to drive fast nice cars, but i like investing and making money more, so there needs to be a trade off.
i was hoping they'd hold their value more and be a better investment.
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mm450exc
279 posts
47 months
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mollytherocker said: mm450exc said: Don't worry about depreciation. It's the fun factor that counts! Thats easy to say if you are rich. For the rest of us, a huge loss on a car can soon offset any enjoyment. MTR Nothing to do with being rich. But you are not going to pick your car based on depreciation vs. what you really want are you? End of the day owning a Porsche is not cheap. Insurance, warranty, tracker, tax, fuel, service, tires, track days,..... 6k a year average?
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RudeDog
1,239 posts
43 months
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ben_ek said: it's not a case of affording it, it's a matter of making a good investment. i like to drive fast nice cars, but i like investing and making money more, so there needs to be a trade off.
i was hoping they'd hold their value more and be a better investment. You should buy a 964 or a 993 in Turbo or RS guise or just go right ahead and short the Euro. A 997 C2S and "investment" are polar opposites.
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Porkupine
1,553 posts
34 months
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ben_ek said: it's not a case of affording it, it's a matter of making a good investment. i like to drive fast nice cars, but i like investing and making money more, so there needs to be a trade off.
i was hoping they'd hold their value more and be a better investment. No modern car can be bought as an investment. If you want investment buy some property. Buying a car will give you a warm feeling when you drive it and it is this that you are essentially paying for - this is what your what your so-called 'investment' will give you in return. The cost of this pleasure can be spread in your mind over the number of months or years that you own it...and we can call it depreciation. It is certainly NOT an investment. If it were, it would appreciate rather than depreciate!
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RudeDog
1,239 posts
43 months
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Porkupine said: No modern car can be bought as an investment. If you want investment buy some property. This is not necessarily a good idea either if you are after short term growth. Every chance that property prices will fall further if the problems with the Euro get much worse.
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Porkupine
1,553 posts
34 months
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RudeDog said: This is not necessarily a good idea either if you are after short term growth. Every chance that property prices will fall further if the problems with the Euro get much worse. Agreed...but it is more what I would call an investment rather than a car!
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
69 months
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ben_ek said: it's not a case of affording it, it's a matter of making a good investment. i like to drive fast nice cars, but i like investing and making money more, so there needs to be a trade off.
i was hoping they'd hold their value more and be a better investment. 'Hoping' they hold their value is not going to influence what actually happens in the future, so that is not going to help you. This is not rocket science. If you want to estimate where a 2006 C2S with 50K miles on the clock will be in 4 years time with 70K on the clock, then draw the depreciation curve and extrapolate it. A 6 year old car should be on the linear part of the graph by now. You can also use 2002 996 prices as a rough guide. Obviously there is a change of model in that comparison, so you could add maybe a couple of grand to compensate. But otherwise it will give you a good ballpark figure. These are not special cars and therefore will be subject to normal used car depreciation dynamics. Without doing the donkey work for you, I suspect the answer is going to be roughly £14-15K. No doubt someone will dig up this thread in 4 years time to confirm 
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
69 months
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ben_ek said: uktrailmonster said: Depreciation on newer cars is always higher. i would normally have thought that, but there are 2004 997 c2s with 50k on the clock going for circa £24,000, so by that would be a circa 30% loss. but the 997 is still kind of current, but the 991 will be well established by the time i sell so i'm not sure if the same rule would apply - what do you think? I see what you mean, but I think in reality 2004 997s were considerably more expensive than £35K 4 years ago (pre recession etc). So the actual depreciation is higher than it appears now the prices have taken a bath across the board. I'm sure you could research it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were close to £50K back then.
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Johnfrancis
370 posts
19 months
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Expensive motoring is........er....expensive....simples.
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Candellara
371 posts
51 months
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ben_ek said: it's not a case of affording it, it's a matter of making a good investment. i like to drive fast nice cars, but i like investing and making money more, so there needs to be a trade off.
i was hoping they'd hold their value more and be a better investment. Generally speaking, car's are not investments - end of. The exceptions being F40, Miura, old Porsche RS's and as investments go, stick them in a garage, do not put any miles on them and wait for many years. Sportscars are a vice and cost money. A 30k "modern" Porsche will have £5k of dealer margin which disappears straight away (yes, car dealers do need to make a living) and then expect about £4k "ish" depreciation per annum. In 4 years time, allow the car to be worth circa £10k to £12k. Realise anymore through a private sale and that's a bonus!
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ben_ek
Original Poster
56 posts
79 months
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i have made money on a couple of my recent 'fun' road cars and never lost more than 20% over the period of ownership on any of them. that includes cars purchased new to classics, so a car can be a reasonable investment (disregarding running costs!) if managed correctly. i must stress that the on-going cost is not an issue and is normal/anticipated. i'm just trying to evaluate the best car to go for.
i think if i had bought a 997.1 a few years ago it would have held its value much better as the difference between the 997.1 and 997.2 is not great and the prices have held pretty well, however from what has been said here the release of the 991 will see prices plummet and i will have to take that on board and see if it is worthwhile. it's hard to judge the impact the 991 will have on the value graph hence the question.
i have also looked at turbos as recommended and although they are not my preferred 911 they do hold their value better so it may be worth chipping in the extra 5-10k for one.
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
69 months
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ben_ek said: i think if i had bought a 997.1 a few years ago it would have held its value much better Don't see any long term 997.1 owners on here raving about how little they have lost in depreciation. More the exact opposite. These appear to have been hit very hard over the last few years and are now real bargains. Put it this way, I'd rather be in the market for one now than 2008.
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gibbon
664 posts
76 months
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Diesel130 said: About the same or a bit less (due to more made) than a 2002 model 996 with 70K on clock is now.... i.e. £12.5K ish.
... You think a good facelift 996 is 12.5 now? Wow.
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mollytherocker
6,863 posts
78 months
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mm450exc said: Nothing to do with being rich. But you are not going to pick your car based on depreciation vs. what you really want are you? Of course it is! If I was very wealthy, I would have a mahoosive garage full of every car I wanted, from a mini to an Enzo!! and I would LAUGH in the face of depreciation. Ahahahaha!!!!  Alas, I am not. Therefore, the total cost of ownership comes into deciding which car I can own. Its not THE deciding factor, but it has to be one of them. Indeed, a little common sense and lateral thinking gets you into a better car than you thought you could afford. Its all part of the fun.  MTR
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ben_ek
Original Poster
56 posts
79 months
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uktrailmonster said: Don't see any long term 997.1 owners on here raving about how little they have lost in depreciation. More the exact opposite. These appear to have been hit very hard over the last few years and are now real bargains. Put it this way, I'd rather be in the market for one now than 2008. that's good to know..
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griffgrog
344 posts
115 months
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Here's an easy rule of thumb I follow for modern cars i.e. not classics.
Rule 1: The more you spend, the more you'll lose.
Rule 2: Budget on 25% per annum on a reducing balance basis. You may be lucky, you might not.
Rule 3: Cars are NEVER an investment.
And my thoughts on Classic Cars. The market is riding the most ridiculous bubble caused by virtually 0% interest rates. As soon as they're back up to 3 or 4%, classic cars will lose anything up to 50% of their value. I just don't know when this correction will happen.
Cars are fun but they cost. In the long run they're cheaper then beers or birds though. Have fun!
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cmoose
18,550 posts
98 months
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It's nice to think 997s will hold up. Problem is, they built a metric tonne of them. They may settle slightly higher than 996s. But I doubt it will be more than a few £k.
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mollytherocker
6,863 posts
78 months
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cmoose said: It's nice to think 997s will hold up. Problem is, they built a metric tonne of them. They may settle slightly higher than 996s. But I doubt it will be more than a few £k. I agree with that with the exception that it may be more than a few £k. My reasoning is that the apparent slow sales of the 991 is going to have a positive downwards effect. Especially on the DFI gen 2 cars, I believe that these will be relatively sought after and remain quite strong. MTR
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