Buy private or from independent
Discussion
Just after some advice based on all your past experiences. I'm looking to purchase a 964 RS or a C2 993. Do I go private and save some cash (use an independant inspection) or use an independent and pay the extra?
Just after some real life experiences really.
PS, will I be able to live with the RS on the road? I currently do 7-10 trackdays a year in a 7 I want a car that can do both the road and track thing hence the porker idea.
Just after some real life experiences really.
PS, will I be able to live with the RS on the road? I currently do 7-10 trackdays a year in a 7 I want a car that can do both the road and track thing hence the porker idea.
Yer pays yer money and takes yer chance!
Allways bought private myself, had a decent inspection and saved a little bit in the process.
A work of caution though. Do your research, know exactly what you want to buy and be patient! The 964 RS is a rare beast and I beleive it is getting progressivly more dificult to find really good examples at reasonable prices.
The 993 C2 is also getting older by the day and as such, even a good share of these cars are getting a bit tired now. Search these forums and look for the usual wiring harness replacement, check strap repairs, etc,.
Nothing wrong with the independents though, before I get slated! These cars tend to be better prepared and presented in more conducive surroundings for the buyer to inspect. You should get a good warrenty via these guys.
Suppose if you wanted to be ultra careful. Ive heard that quite a few people that source through an independent and get an inspection as well!
Happy hunting...
Allways bought private myself, had a decent inspection and saved a little bit in the process.
A work of caution though. Do your research, know exactly what you want to buy and be patient! The 964 RS is a rare beast and I beleive it is getting progressivly more dificult to find really good examples at reasonable prices.
The 993 C2 is also getting older by the day and as such, even a good share of these cars are getting a bit tired now. Search these forums and look for the usual wiring harness replacement, check strap repairs, etc,.
Nothing wrong with the independents though, before I get slated! These cars tend to be better prepared and presented in more conducive surroundings for the buyer to inspect. You should get a good warrenty via these guys.
Suppose if you wanted to be ultra careful. Ive heard that quite a few people that source through an independent and get an inspection as well!
Happy hunting...
Buying private from a dedicated owner eg Porsche Club member will give you the best deal, if you have a friend who is a Porsche enthusiast then take them along use their knowledge to short list or select the car you will have a proper paid-for inspection done on . If you don't have such a friend but remain serious about becoming a Porsche owner then recommend you join the club and start going to local meetings / corresponding on the message boards / forums. You will then have better idea of what you want. Patience is a virtue when it comes to buying cars.
The 993 and the 964RS are like chalk and cheese. My advice would be to get a 'normal' 964 Carrera 2 , which is v close to 993 in performance, get used to the handling , then start to modify it if you get more ambitious about track performance. Its basically same 3.6 litre engine , but needs mechanical tappet adjustment ( 993 has hydraulic lifters) , so dearer to service BUT has greater potential for power increase. The money ( several thousands !!) you save on 964 vs 993 can be usefully spent on suspension and brake and engine upgrade.
Final word, 964 can be a daily driver as can the 993 but not the 964RS unless you are a masochist.
The 993 and the 964RS are like chalk and cheese. My advice would be to get a 'normal' 964 Carrera 2 , which is v close to 993 in performance, get used to the handling , then start to modify it if you get more ambitious about track performance. Its basically same 3.6 litre engine , but needs mechanical tappet adjustment ( 993 has hydraulic lifters) , so dearer to service BUT has greater potential for power increase. The money ( several thousands !!) you save on 964 vs 993 can be usefully spent on suspension and brake and engine upgrade.
Final word, 964 can be a daily driver as can the 993 but not the 964RS unless you are a masochist.
IMHO I would say coming from a Caterham and wanting to do up to 10 trackdays a year the 964 RS is the perfect choice.
OK it's about £8K to £10K more than an equivalent condition 964 C2, but the money should be fairly safe in a 964 RS. Also IMHO any money spent modifying a C2 for track work will be lost money.
As Oldtimer says they are totally different cars, but once you have decided you should definitely get an inspection.
OK it's about £8K to £10K more than an equivalent condition 964 C2, but the money should be fairly safe in a 964 RS. Also IMHO any money spent modifying a C2 for track work will be lost money.
As Oldtimer says they are totally different cars, but once you have decided you should definitely get an inspection.
paulmc said:
IMHO I would say coming from a Caterham and wanting to do up to 10 trackdays a year the 964 RS is the perfect choice.
if you don't want to drive it on the road.
paulmc said:
OK it's about £8K to £10K more than an equivalent condition 964 C2,
- £16-20k ?
paulmc said:
but the money should be fairly safe in a 964 RS.
Perhaps
paulmc said:
Also IMHO any money spent modifying a C2 for track work will be lost money.
If you sell, but if you track cars it costs money. Upgrades can be carried out when things break - which is often, for little less than repair costs. RS's will need repairs if tracked.
paulmc said:
As Oldtimer says they are totally different cars, but once you have decided you should definitely get an inspection.
You need to drive them both, and preferably on road and track. Then try a modified C2.
>> Edited by tony.t on Saturday 7th August 12:04
Hi CSeven. I had an RS, did track days in it, became hugely paranoid about spanking it - alloy bonnet, mag wheels, unique PU, etc etc and sold it and bought a Supersport. Then grduated to an SLR.
You could just about use a 964 RS on the road on a daily basis, but it doesn't ride as well as a Seven, is frankly inconvenient in lhd for day to day work (eg car parks and tolls), is almost as noisy as a Seven, will never feel as fast as a Seven, nor handle as well as one. Having said that, in my experience, it is the closest Porsche to a Seven that you'll find in terms of rawness and focus. Every journey will be an occasion, as it is in a Seven.
Forget about buying an RS if you really want/need to use it every day as well. Forget about buying a 993 C2 or 964 C2 and uprating it to decent track spec. This will cost you more than you think and will also devalue the car, making it nigh on impossible to sell on at reasonable money.
Alternative - buy a car that someone has already prepared for track work - the car will be cheaper to buy ands will come with the right spec...but may have been spanked of course.
Last year Paul Stepehsn sold a lhd Carrera Clubsport for about £14k that had been track prepared - I was seriously pissed off that I missed it - it offered what you/I wanted - a track optimised 911 that could still be used on the road. ..and it was a CS, which has intrinsic value too and could be put back to pure road condition to sell on if needs be.
See another thread on here ref. a 964 cup car that is road registered. On the face of it a good buy but I have the photos of it post accident and as is now. The thing was slaughtered and unless the repair is top notch (and in the post repair pix it doesn't look to be perfect...)it's not worth thinking about.
You could just about use a 964 RS on the road on a daily basis, but it doesn't ride as well as a Seven, is frankly inconvenient in lhd for day to day work (eg car parks and tolls), is almost as noisy as a Seven, will never feel as fast as a Seven, nor handle as well as one. Having said that, in my experience, it is the closest Porsche to a Seven that you'll find in terms of rawness and focus. Every journey will be an occasion, as it is in a Seven.
Forget about buying an RS if you really want/need to use it every day as well. Forget about buying a 993 C2 or 964 C2 and uprating it to decent track spec. This will cost you more than you think and will also devalue the car, making it nigh on impossible to sell on at reasonable money.
Alternative - buy a car that someone has already prepared for track work - the car will be cheaper to buy ands will come with the right spec...but may have been spanked of course.
Last year Paul Stepehsn sold a lhd Carrera Clubsport for about £14k that had been track prepared - I was seriously pissed off that I missed it - it offered what you/I wanted - a track optimised 911 that could still be used on the road. ..and it was a CS, which has intrinsic value too and could be put back to pure road condition to sell on if needs be.
See another thread on here ref. a 964 cup car that is road registered. On the face of it a good buy but I have the photos of it post accident and as is now. The thing was slaughtered and unless the repair is top notch (and in the post repair pix it doesn't look to be perfect...)it's not worth thinking about.
rubystone said:
Forget about buying an RS if you really want/need to use it every day as well. Forget about buying a 993 C2 or 964 C2 and uprating it to decent track spec. This will cost you more than you think and will also devalue the car, making it nigh on impossible to sell on at reasonable money.
I have done this and Rubystone is correct in that it costs a lot to convert a C2 to RS, doing so will devalue the car and it may not be as good as an RS after all.
Having said that fitting uprated springs/dampers (H+R coilovers), cup tyres, pagid pads and rechip/decat/cup pipe will give a car that is usable everyday gives 90% of the RS experience on track and change from £20k. If road use is required this would be IMHO the best compromise. If the car is for track use only buy an RS clubsport with welded cage - I wouldn't bother with the tourings or "lightweights".
rubystone said:
Alternative - buy a car that someone has already prepared for track work - the car will be cheaper to buy ands will come with the right spec...but may have been spanked of course.
Always better to let someone else pay out for the preparation, its just essential you can verify its been done well.
There are people who are frightened to use a 964RS on track as it might get damaged / worth too much / too beautiful. However track is where it works best, and IMHO cannot be taken on as a daily driver especially if you commute through stop -go town traffic. I'm glad tony t joined in the thread , he has turned a 964C2 into a track weapon , and I reckon there is an economic halfway house on this using the 964 platform. The 993 is a worthy car but a more expensive platform if you mod it and as has been pointed out , modding can compromise resale value. Joe Public wants a 'mint' original never out in the rain never bent always serviced by Porsche dealer type motor.
I went from SLR to R500 to right hand drive 964RS because I wanted something a bit more useable on the road. I decided not to buy a left hand drive car for this reason.
The RS is very easy to drive on the road and track, even though it can be a little noisy and hot. You get used to it though, and it really is fair close to a Caterham with a roof, luggage space and stereo.
My RS is for sale, you are welcome to come and have a go, even if you don't plan to stretch to a RHD car.
The RS is very easy to drive on the road and track, even though it can be a little noisy and hot. You get used to it though, and it really is fair close to a Caterham with a roof, luggage space and stereo.
My RS is for sale, you are welcome to come and have a go, even if you don't plan to stretch to a RHD car.
I will no doubt get slated for this by the RS boys but, I wouldnt buy one now, they are just too expensive for what you are getting......wouldnt it make more sense to buy a C2 LHD for say 10-12K spend maybe £5K making it into a RS rep and spend the other 15-20K on something else??
The 2.7 RS is too valuable to use in anger now, and it seems acceptable to drive a replica of these (I have seen one on the market at £35K recently) so why not the 964?? At circa £15K it must make a lot of sense?
Sounds like Tony T has found a way of getting a good compromise for his money...and I guess his is an RHD car, so for max bang for buck buy a lhd C2 (can be found for £7k in the trade and sub £10k retail with an engine that needs a rebuild) and off you go.
I can't add anything to Poorcardealer's comments - bang on - but too many 2.7RS reps are overpriced IMHO - £13k is the right money for one - a bit more if it has the 7r magnesium crankcases, but over £20k for a replica? no way!
I can't add anything to Poorcardealer's comments - bang on - but too many 2.7RS reps are overpriced IMHO - £13k is the right money for one - a bit more if it has the 7r magnesium crankcases, but over £20k for a replica? no way!
I still think you can buy an RS for about £10k more than an "equivalent" condition 964 C2. Obviously I'm not talking RHD. I know someone who has recently paid £25k for a LHD 964 RS with only 46,000 km's privately. A similar condition 964 C2 with the same mileage will be about £15k.
Ok I agree if your aim is to modify from the outset you can buy something cheaper. I'm just not a big fan of spending a lot of money modifying cars. Why not buy the car that is closest to what you want, and then maybe modify that if anything.
For example a Bilstien service centre will rebuild and re-vavle your dampers to make them more to your tastes. This is relatively cheap and indeed a common mod for some 964 RS owners is to fit 993 RS front dampers to make it much more compliant on the road.
Ok I agree if your aim is to modify from the outset you can buy something cheaper. I'm just not a big fan of spending a lot of money modifying cars. Why not buy the car that is closest to what you want, and then maybe modify that if anything.
For example a Bilstien service centre will rebuild and re-vavle your dampers to make them more to your tastes. This is relatively cheap and indeed a common mod for some 964 RS owners is to fit 993 RS front dampers to make it much more compliant on the road.
rubystone said:
Sounds like Tony T has found a way of getting a good compromise for his money
Rubystone was correct in stating that converting a C2 to RS is too expensive. Ask me how I know
However for a dailydriver/track compromise I still think a C2 is the better start point.
If I knew when I bought the C2 I would want a pure track car I would have bought an RS clubsport (with welded cage) but I didn't and the car sort of evolved as things went wrong.
tony.t said:
[and the car sort of evolved as things went wrong.
To add fuel to the cost of an RS debate - late last year/earlier this year a Maritime RS sold for just north of £20k but the seller did not convey the impression of having looked after it. A black RS in Newcastle sold for about the same money too and by all accounts needed about £2k spending on it to bring it up to scratch.
How about this?? www.bsmotorsport.co.uk/
Porsche964 Carrera RHD RS
Year 1991
Registration H253 YBB
Mileage
Colour Yellow
Information Chassis # WPOZZZ96ZMS402621
Car was a carrera 4 converted back to 2 wheel drive for Porsche Club Cup race sieries has had full chassis check on jig car is equiped with full weld in cage / onbord extinguisher / fuel cell / race seat & 6 point harness / 964 Turbo brake kit.Engine is original to cup regs with decat and cup replacement pipes.
Ideal car for Club Racing [Porsche Club Open] 750Motor Club Etc.
Price £ 19000
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