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drmark
1,534 posts
56 months
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MrTickle said: Yes, fair shout if it's spinning the rears due to too much power on the exit. I was thinking of being too quick into the bend. If you are too quick into the bend you should also definitely be off the throttle - and, as Steve points out above, stay off it until apex at earliest.
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MrTickle
1,479 posts
109 months
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drmark said: If you are too quick into the bend you should also definitely be off the throttle - and, as Steve points out above, stay off it until apex at earliest. But surely not 'come off' the throttle mid slide? The will reduce traction further on the rears?
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
70 months
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MrTickle said: drmark said: If you are too quick into the bend you should also definitely be off the throttle - and, as Steve points out above, stay off it until apex at earliest. But surely not 'come off' the throttle mid slide? The will reduce traction further on the rears? Coming off the throttle in this condition does not reduce rear traction. Quite the opposite actually. Especially as from the OP's description the rear broke away on gentle power application. Probably the best he could have done in this situation was get back off the little power he applied and get some opposite lock on. Given the track conditions, this might not have prevented a spin. Note: this is not the same thing as an opposite lock power slide in the dry, where if you suddenly got off the power the rear would bite aggressively and spin you off in the opposite direction.
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MrTickle
1,479 posts
109 months
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uktrailmonster said: MrTickle said: drmark said: If you are too quick into the bend you should also definitely be off the throttle - and, as Steve points out above, stay off it until apex at earliest. But surely not 'come off' the throttle mid slide? The will reduce traction further on the rears? Coming off the throttle in this condition does not reduce rear traction. Quite the opposite actually. Especially as from the OP's description the rear broke away on gentle power application. Probably the best he could have done in this situation was get back off the little power he applied and get some opposite lock on. Given the track conditions, this might not have prevented a spin. Note: this is not the same thing as an opposite lock power slide in the dry, where if you suddenly got off the power the rear would bite aggressively and spin you off in the opposite direction. Thanks for that, interesting stuff.... I had always taken the approach that once a car starts to slide at the rear, keep steady power but catch it on the steering, so interesting to hear from those in the know that it can help to lift off.
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drpep
1,057 posts
38 months
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Raitzi said: ROK said: are you on the factory lsd? very likely you're running an open diff. GT3 with open diff  Is LSD not standard? The stock diff on gt3 and rs cars is known to be weak, and wears quickly, ultimately leaving you with an open diff. A search on here should reveal all. A few companies known to offer a replacement service for the diff internals with much stronger bits.
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
70 months
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drpep said: The stock diff on gt3 and rs cars is known to be weak, and wears quickly, ultimately leaving you with an open diff. A search on here should reveal all. A few companies known to offer a replacement service for the diff internals with much stronger bits. While an open diff is totally rubbish for laptimes, in this particular case it would have helped the OP in (relatively) harmlessly spinning the inside rear wheel instead of applying power to the loaded outside rear wheel. An open diff gives you a safety net in this regard.
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Lordglenmorangie
2,568 posts
75 months
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Were you able to get the staining of the seats
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IainF
Original Poster
50 posts
125 months
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Lordglenmorangie said: Were you able to get the staining of the seats As I said - no damage done! Thanks for all the comments guys. The car was the white GT3. 4th trackday in it, but as I said, lots of previous experience. The tyres are Pilot Sport Cups of course. And half worn. So I was acutely aware of the potential for this. Just thought I had more margin for error than it proved. No obvious sign of oil or other fluids on the circuit, so don't think I can use that excuse. Will get the lsd checked out at service time though.
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fioran0
1,394 posts
42 months
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Steve Rance said: The driving technique in a 911 is very different to RWD BMW. Unless Chris is a 911 specialist, he may have inadvertently be part on the cause. In a 911, you do not want to be anywhere near the throttle until the apex. If you kiss it before then, you are in trouble. 911's are not difficult to drive in the wet. The same technique is required as in the dry but you can't take as much braking from turn in in a 997 because the bias is too far rearward which is a particular gripe of mine. The only thing that you need to adjust sometimes is your line. Often, I'd sniff more grip out around the outside of a corner where there is no rubber laid down as water laying on rubber gives less grip. I did a in car video for some mag or another a few years ago in a 996RS on cups at Spa. it was very wet and made for an interesting video. It was on Youtube Not sure if it's still there but if it is, it may help. Do a search on my name and it may come up. Don't worry about spinning. The important thing is learning from it.
As always, wise words from Steve. Just an add but the transition from brake to throttle is also important IMHO. Too long a wait and the GT3s will spin out on you. I've seen countless incidences of delayed throttle spins. You are relying entirely on lateral tyre grip alone with the 996/997 platform when you delay throttle. In the wet, as one tries to be gentle with throttle application it's all too easy to begin to mimic delayed throttle behaviour. Add in PS Cups, rain and tricky corner loading all limiting tyre grip significantly anyways and it would be super easy to do.
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uktrailmonster
4,406 posts
70 months
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fioran0 said: Just an add but the transition from brake to throttle is also important IMHO.
Too long a wait and the GT3s will spin out on you. I've seen countless incidences of delayed throttle spins.
You are relying entirely on lateral tyre grip alone with the 996/997 platform when you delay throttle. I guess you mean continuing to brake deep into the apex when you should have been getting back on the throttle? So too much forward weight transfer causing a spin. That would make sense if the OP had not already been on the power when it let go. Anyway, always hard to analyse what technically happened with a wet weather spin. I've had that conversation many times with F1 drivers who have binned it in the rain. "The back end just snapped on me out of nowhere and I couldn't catch it". Happens to the very best track drivers all the time. so don't worry about it.
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fioran0
1,394 posts
42 months
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Sorry for not being clear, I meant literally delaying the throttle. So coming off brakes but not getting onto the throttle immediately.
It leaves only the lateral tyre grip to resist the considerable rotation of the car for the second or two before power is applied and you exploit the rear engine layout.
The huge rear rubber of course helps reduce the impact of this but as speed increases or tyres/conditions deteriorate the margin available for this reduces.
Easing in a throttle for wet conditions can very much begin to mimic just delaying a throttle on the 996/997.
I wasn't there and haven't seen video so was only speaking generally to add to steves comments.
PS Cups and Wet are together more than enough just in themselves to require fortified under garments
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noneedtolift
587 posts
93 months
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I beg to differ regarding the comments in respect to not being back on the throttle before the apex in GT3's.
Naturally this will depend on the type of corner and your personal driving style, but there are of course a variety of corners where you are clearly on the throttle before the apex and look for full throttle at or shortly after the apex.
Just my personal experiance.
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fioran0
1,394 posts
42 months
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For further clarity ref my own posts, I was relating very specifically to the time between releasing the brake and applying the throttle. I was making no comment as to when on a corner this actually took place.
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drmark
1,534 posts
56 months
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noneedtolift said: I beg to differ regarding the comments in respect to not being back on the throttle before the apex in GT3's.
Naturally this will depend on the type of corner and your personal driving style, but there are of course a variety of corners where you are clearly on the throttle before the apex and look for full throttle at or shortly after the apex.
Just my personal experiance. Quite right.
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ROK
245 posts
22 months
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drpep said: Raitzi said: ROK said: are you on the factory lsd? very likely you're running an open diff. GT3 with open diff Is LSD not standard? The stock diff on gt3 and rs cars is known to be weak, and wears quickly, ultimately leaving you with an open diff. A search on here should reveal all. A few companies known to offer a replacement service for the diff internals with much stronger bits. yup. and it affects you not just in turns, but just overall in putting power down on acceleration and braking. esp high speed braking. it's crap that porsche outfitted the gt3s with an lsd that simply does NOT work. I went with the guard lsd in mine. much much better. as it should be from the factory.
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steve singh
2,439 posts
43 months
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GT3s can be quite unforgiving.
My first track drive in one in the wet nearly had me skipping across the grass and it was just fluke that it didn't.
Like the OP I didn't sense any impending danger - but then again the number plate wasn't GT03 OFF for no reason!!!
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noneedtolift
587 posts
93 months
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I've got one for you: Nordkurve (1st Corner) Hockenheim GP Circuit 
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red997
215 posts
79 months
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I'm with Steve on this - I've seen the traces from Sean etc - and they really are digital !
helped me comparing my traces to theirs in the same car to improve no end.
David
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noneedtolift
587 posts
93 months
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Regarding the digital throttle: I think that the capability of the car to putting down power is one of the most impressive bits about driving a GT3 at the limit - albeit I found it a hard to hone skill using that very capability. I hate it when pro drivers make it look ever so easy.... Adding to this it never surprises me to see what lines pro drivers chose to tackle a corner - very different to the traditional "old school" lines at times but faster.
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jackwood
1,229 posts
78 months
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Just going back to this lifting or not lifting of the throttle after the rear end has started to slide.
I've been playing around with my car and find that the easiest way to spin it is to lift off the throttle as soon as the rear end starts to lose grip.
The nose dives adding front end grip and the rear comes around very quickly.
You do need to make a throttle adjustment in order to slowly reduce the wheel spin, but this has to be very well judged and combined with the correct amount of steering adjustment to prevent a spin.
Those are my findings in my car at least.
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