GT3 a bit tricky to catch
Discussion
Attended the BMW Car Club trackday at Croft yesterday. This is a friendly club and a good day, but the weather was poor. Dry very early on, but thereafter a mixture of drizzle and heavier rain, so conditions were not consistent from session to session. Enjoyed some good laps but was taking it easy, feeling for the grip. In the middle of the afternoon I got talking to Chris from the BMW Club. He was driving a very smart white AC Schnitzer Z4 and he instructs a bit as well. Anyway, I asked him if I could go out as a passenger in the Z4 with him, and he said was happy to do this. Did 4 laps. Pretty impressive little car actually. He wasn’t pushing it too hard, as by this time it had started raining again, but it felt strong and very stable. When we came in, I offered to take him round in the GT3.
Left the pits, did maybe 2 or 3 laps. It was raining, more than a drizzle, but not really any different to what I’d been out in earlier. Lights and wipers on. Traction control was fully on. Dampers set to sport (possibly an error, but again, just the same as they had been all through the day). Chris was giving me a few tips on my old faults - keeping my hands fixed on the wheel, line through certain corners, etc. But it was all pretty relaxed. I wasn’t trying to impress him with the car, or go any more quickly than I thought was sensible. Came down the back straight. Turned into Tower. Entry speed and line were fine. No problems. Clipped a decent apex. Was looking at the exit cone and squeezed the power on ever so gently when, waaaahh. The back end came round like lightning. By the time I got some opposite lock on we were at least at 90 degrees to the direction I wanted to go, and I had no chance of catching it. So slammed clutch and brake to the floor, and held on. The car spun through what seemed at least 2 x 360s, fortunately into the infield, and came to rest well into the grass and facing back out onto the track. The engine had stalled, and it took me 3 or 4 attempts to get it to restart. At one point I thought the session might have to be red flagged, but fortunately it started again, and we made out way back onto the circuit and back to the pits. Things that surprised me?
1. That it spun when I didn’t actually think I was in any trouble. Had I gone in too hot, or got the line wrong and had to adjust mid-corner, then fair enough. But I didn’t think there was a problem. Suggests that for much of the day previously, I had been a lot nearer the limit than I had realised, which was a bit of a wake-up call.
2. The speed it came round. Maybe I was too focussed on what Chris had been saying about hands on the wheel. I have done loads of trackdays in the past in other cars. I tend to try to drive up towards the limits of the car, rather than showboat. I remember catching my Caterham at Lodge as if it was second nature. But I would have had to react way quicker yesterday than I did if I was to have had any chance of catching the GT3. Chris reckoned I could have been OK if I’d applied opposite lock the instant I felt it go. Or even come off the power at that point (not that I was seriously on the power anyway). My view is that I would need a lot of practice to catch it even half the time!
3. The traction control was away having a cup of tea. Maybe it is asking too much of the system in those conditions with those tyres. But the traction control might as well not have been there.
4. How long it took to stop on the grass. For ever. I always remember chuckling at briefings when being warned that the funny thing about grass was that it made you go much faster than tarmac. Now I understand!
5. Not so much of a surprise this one, but it seems pretty random whether you head for the infield or for the outside of the track. I certainly didn’t have any say in the matter. Could have been expensive if we’d gone the other way!
Anyway, got back to the pits and checked the car over. No damage done. So after a bit of a chat, we went back out again and I did another 4 or 5 laps with Chris. Top marks to Chris here. I think I would have been heading for the hills. But he was very keen that we went back out. Possibly in case I got a block over what had happened. Anyway, the remaining laps were fine. Nice and smooth, managed to take on his points over hands on the wheel and line through a couple of corners. Might have gone a wee bit slower…especially through Tower.
Left the pits, did maybe 2 or 3 laps. It was raining, more than a drizzle, but not really any different to what I’d been out in earlier. Lights and wipers on. Traction control was fully on. Dampers set to sport (possibly an error, but again, just the same as they had been all through the day). Chris was giving me a few tips on my old faults - keeping my hands fixed on the wheel, line through certain corners, etc. But it was all pretty relaxed. I wasn’t trying to impress him with the car, or go any more quickly than I thought was sensible. Came down the back straight. Turned into Tower. Entry speed and line were fine. No problems. Clipped a decent apex. Was looking at the exit cone and squeezed the power on ever so gently when, waaaahh. The back end came round like lightning. By the time I got some opposite lock on we were at least at 90 degrees to the direction I wanted to go, and I had no chance of catching it. So slammed clutch and brake to the floor, and held on. The car spun through what seemed at least 2 x 360s, fortunately into the infield, and came to rest well into the grass and facing back out onto the track. The engine had stalled, and it took me 3 or 4 attempts to get it to restart. At one point I thought the session might have to be red flagged, but fortunately it started again, and we made out way back onto the circuit and back to the pits. Things that surprised me?
1. That it spun when I didn’t actually think I was in any trouble. Had I gone in too hot, or got the line wrong and had to adjust mid-corner, then fair enough. But I didn’t think there was a problem. Suggests that for much of the day previously, I had been a lot nearer the limit than I had realised, which was a bit of a wake-up call.
2. The speed it came round. Maybe I was too focussed on what Chris had been saying about hands on the wheel. I have done loads of trackdays in the past in other cars. I tend to try to drive up towards the limits of the car, rather than showboat. I remember catching my Caterham at Lodge as if it was second nature. But I would have had to react way quicker yesterday than I did if I was to have had any chance of catching the GT3. Chris reckoned I could have been OK if I’d applied opposite lock the instant I felt it go. Or even come off the power at that point (not that I was seriously on the power anyway). My view is that I would need a lot of practice to catch it even half the time!
3. The traction control was away having a cup of tea. Maybe it is asking too much of the system in those conditions with those tyres. But the traction control might as well not have been there.
4. How long it took to stop on the grass. For ever. I always remember chuckling at briefings when being warned that the funny thing about grass was that it made you go much faster than tarmac. Now I understand!
5. Not so much of a surprise this one, but it seems pretty random whether you head for the infield or for the outside of the track. I certainly didn’t have any say in the matter. Could have been expensive if we’d gone the other way!
Anyway, got back to the pits and checked the car over. No damage done. So after a bit of a chat, we went back out again and I did another 4 or 5 laps with Chris. Top marks to Chris here. I think I would have been heading for the hills. But he was very keen that we went back out. Possibly in case I got a block over what had happened. Anyway, the remaining laps were fine. Nice and smooth, managed to take on his points over hands on the wheel and line through a couple of corners. Might have gone a wee bit slower…especially through Tower.
I wouldn't worry about what happened in such conditions too much. It's one of the reasons why we used to severely restrict our F1 testing in wet conditions. More often than not you would simply end up with a seriously bent car. The real lesson here is not to bother pushing on at all in the wet unless you are actually racing or have deep pockets and don't mind hospital food.
uktrailmonster said:
I wouldn't worry about what happened in such conditions too much. It's one of the reasons why we used to severely restrict our F1 testing in wet conditions. More often than not you would simply end up with a seriously bent car. The real lesson here is not to bother pushing on at all in the wet unless you are actually racing or have deep pockets and don't mind hospital food.
I was on a wet trackday last week (evening at brands hatch).. 4 red flags. 1 crash and 3 cars in the gravel all separate incidents and a multitude of yellows..I think it could happen to anyone and honestly, whatever the cause, there is no point pushing it when any lock is applied and only if you are very very gentle with the throttle. luckily you escaped.....
i agree with uktrailmonster, no sense pushing on a wet trackday especially in an expensive GT3
GT3RS said:
Drive like this, no problem.Bloody hell, he knows his stuff.
GT3RS said:
He's actually not going very fast (as evidenced by the white car that they're sat behind before the slide that disapears into the distance), but he's obviously very smooth!Been a passenger in a mk1 GT3 in exactly the same conditions on the same bend and did the same thing ending up in the same place.
There was no hint of it coming and I would suggest cock all that could be done about it. The driver was a very experienced track driver and he said he had no hint that it was coming.
There was no hint of it coming and I would suggest cock all that could be done about it. The driver was a very experienced track driver and he said he had no hint that it was coming.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
IainF said:
Chris reckoned I could have been OK if I’d applied opposite lock the instant I felt it go. Or even come off the power at that point (not that I was seriously on the power anyway). .
Are you sure about the credentials of this guy?A little quicker on the opposite lock probably would have worked.
MrTickle said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
IainF said:
Chris reckoned I could have been OK if I’d applied opposite lock the instant I felt it go. Or even come off the power at that point (not that I was seriously on the power anyway). .
Are you sure about the credentials of this guy?Yes, coming off the throttle altogether (and sharply) is likely to make the situation worse, however if it's a power oversteer slide, then easing off the throttle + opposite lock is likely to be the right course of action.
Much easier said than done however, especially in the wet in a 911.
Glad there was no serious damage.
Hi Iain,
I was supposed to be at Croft yesterday but, had to sell my place last minute due to family commitments.
I wouldn't beat yourself up to much about spinning at Tower, it's notorious when it gets wet. Other corners stay relatively ok, such as sunny in and sunny out.
Is your car white? My mates were there in a 430 Scuderia and a red 360. Chris in the red 360 spun at Tower and he races at Croft all the time (albeit in a 4wd Subaru racecar). Just one of those things. Sometimes you catch it, sometimes you don't.
PS I'm not too bothered about not being able to go now, after seeing what the weather was like.
I was last there last year in the wet and I only had my slicks with me.
I was supposed to be at Croft yesterday but, had to sell my place last minute due to family commitments.
I wouldn't beat yourself up to much about spinning at Tower, it's notorious when it gets wet. Other corners stay relatively ok, such as sunny in and sunny out.
Is your car white? My mates were there in a 430 Scuderia and a red 360. Chris in the red 360 spun at Tower and he races at Croft all the time (albeit in a 4wd Subaru racecar). Just one of those things. Sometimes you catch it, sometimes you don't.
PS I'm not too bothered about not being able to go now, after seeing what the weather was like.
I was last there last year in the wet and I only had my slicks with me.
adamb said:
Bear in mind the traction control in a 997.1 GT3 is just that, not stability control, so will not stop a spin.
Did not know this!So in a 997.1 Carrera with PASM and Sport on, I assume it has traction and stability control active?
Wheras a 997.1 GT3 has no stability control at all irrelevent of the mode? Just traction control?
Gibbo205 said:
Did not know this!
So in a 997.1 Carrera with PASM and Sport on, I assume it has traction and stability control active?
Wheras a 997.1 GT3 has no stability control at all irrelevent of the mode? Just traction control?
That's the teddy! Requires big balls to drive one hard in the wet, although they're pretty benign in the dry .....So in a 997.1 Carrera with PASM and Sport on, I assume it has traction and stability control active?
Wheras a 997.1 GT3 has no stability control at all irrelevent of the mode? Just traction control?
MrTickle said:
A little quicker on the opposite lock probably would have worked.
But then it's also so easy to over-correct and end up spinning the other way towards the armco... you can't win in the wet really, total lottery !I guess the GT3 being lighter overall, the engine is even "heavier" as a proportion to the car.
Is LSD not standard?monthefish said:
MrTickle said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
IainF said:
Chris reckoned I could have been OK if I’d applied opposite lock the instant I felt it go. Or even come off the power at that point (not that I was seriously on the power anyway). .
Are you sure about the credentials of this guy?Yes, coming off the throttle altogether (and sharply) is likely to make the situation worse, however if it's a power oversteer slide, then easing off the throttle + opposite lock is likely to be the right course of action.
Much easier said than done however, especially in the wet in a 911.
Glad there was no serious damage.
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