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DSM2

3,624 posts

69 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Timbo_Mint said:
V8KSN said:
Agreed. In the meantime, don't take it above 4k revs until the oil temp is on or around 90.
90? The temp gauge on mine seems to stop at 80. A small point but if they wait till 90 it may never get there. The points a good one though.

Mine is a 987 not a 986 so it could be different.
Really? Are you not thinking of the water temperature? On my 997 the water indicates 80 but the oil runs between 90 and 100.

BTW, for what it's worth the OP should really have figured this all out before he bought the car. It frightens me to think that people with this lack of experience are out there in Porsches.

gsewell

235 posts

152 months

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Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
987's don't have an oil temp gauge. At least my Cayman does not.

Output Flange

12,277 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Meh - he doesn't say which 986 he has, but they've all got more mechanical grip than poke anyway, so I doubt he'll get himself into too much trouble.

OP, book a driving day with instruction now, learn what you need to know, then go and enjoy your car.

croyde

8,747 posts

99 months

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Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Wait for the tyres to warm up tho' as I nearly crashed a hire 986 as I gave it beans round a corner on a one way system, overtaking a Golf GTI, minutes after picking it up.

It was warm and dry but the back end went and gave me a brown trouser moment.

Once I got my own 987, I drove it like I stole it hehe

walm

3,441 posts

71 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
DSM2 said:
BTW, for what it's worth the OP should really have figured this all out before he bought the car. It frightens me to think that people with this lack of experience are out there in Porsches.
Ha!
There are an enormous number of more scary things on the road than someone driving benignly in a car with tremendous grip!
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cmoose

18,596 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
gsewell said:
I would NOT go to a roundabout in the wet in 2nd and then "floor it" unless you know how to catch it. Even with PSM, it can take you by surprise and potentially cause a crash.

Secondly, until you are familiar with "the plan" as advocated in Roadcraft, I would not find heel and toe applicable to road use. If you are driving that hard, your contingency options get limited as you are going faster into the corners and hence relative visibility will be reduced.

So get comfortable with the car first, take training from a good professional source (RideDrive, HPC, etc) and then progress as you feel comfortable.
I think this is where opinions diverge. You don't need to be driving with your pants on fire to benefit from rev matching downchanges. I rev match all my down changes whether pootling or pressing on. Personally, consider it very much a basic and essential skill required for smooth driving, not something exotic and advanced to be learned only once you've covered everything else.

Put another way, heel and toe is not exclusively related to driving fast, even if it is enormously beneficial to driving fast.

It's also something that benefits enormously from practice, so the earlier you start the better.

I'd also say unless you have deep pockets, I'd leave the professional training for a while. There's plenty to be learned from reading around and practising on your own. I'd want to have my basic car control nicely polished and essentially automatic before have professional tuition. You want some spare capacity in order to take in and then apply what you're being told.

Developing yourself into a smooth competent driver also puts you in a better position to decide for yourself which aspects of any given "plan" work for you and which you view as dogmatic etc.

Mutt

1,034 posts

60 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Aaargh! For goodness sake! I've said it already. HEEL AND TOE IS NOT REV MATCHING!

You use rev matching when going up and down the gears. You blip the throttle when going down and let the revs fall when going up.

Heel and toe is rev matching down changes whilst braking. It is called heel and toe because you use you toe to push the brake and your heel to blip the throttle.

The System says you should not overlap braking and changing gear. So heel and toe is a no-no unless is specific circumstances.

Anyone that does not know the difference should not be espousing to novice drivers the benefits of one, the other or with whom they should spend their money.

ETA: not aimed at anyone in particular, I just want people to be clear when they're trying to convince a novice to something relatively straightforward (rev matching) they are not inadvertently getting them to try something more difficult (and risky) like h&t.

Edited by Mutt on Monday 13th August 12:09

shoestring7

4,171 posts

115 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
I'd also say unless you have deep pockets, I'd leave the professional training for a while. There's plenty to be learned from reading around and practising on your own.
From the OP's post he/she's clearly already confused by what they have seen 'reading around'. They would really benefit from spending 50% of an annual Porsche r&m costs on some tuition.

SS7

cmoose

18,596 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Mutt said:
Aaargh! For goodness sake! I've said it already. HEEL AND TOE IS NOT REV MATCHING!
Calm down, dear. Am well aware of what heel and toe is and how it relates to rev matching. May have been a tiny bit sloppy in not making the distinction clear, but there's nothing to get upset about!

The bottom line is that I see heel and toe as the means to provide the ends - rev matched down shifts. So the sentiment is shared and I was getting across the point that rev matching down changes is desirable regardless of speed or driving enthusiasm. Where braking is involved, then it's heel and toe. When it's not, then it isn't!

Once you've got the hang of basic rev matching (which I agree should definitely be learned first), the step to heel and toe isn't that big.

Edited by cmoose on Monday 13th August 12:17

cmoose

18,596 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Mutt said:
The System says you should not overlap braking and changing gear. So heel and toe is a no-no unless is specific circumstances.
Oh and on this specific issue - and as we're in the Porsche forum and not the "Advanced" driving forum, thus I'm absolutely not trolling a group of people who subscribe to a world view - all I can do is sigh and exclaim, gimme a break!

Or an appeal to Fry and Laurie. It's the System, Jennifer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8oH8JHaE00

RtdRacer

1,274 posts

70 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
uktrailmonster said:
I also did a few IAM observed drives back in the late 80's after I passed my test. Although very useful for observation and road sense, I thought their actual driving technique was pants - especially for a high powered sportscar. Steering wheel shuffling and separated braking and shifting etc. Do they still insist on using those methods today?
I went out with the local IAM motorbike bunch a few years back. At the time I was leading the British Motorcycle Racing Club R600 championship, and was working as a trackday instructor and official ACU instructor. I had a lot of friends in the IAM, and whilst their track riding wasn't notable, their road riding seemed on the whole ok. As it was just a pootle, I (only) took my standard road bike - a 150 bhp, full Ohlins clad R1, with Pirelli Supercorsa tyres.

My first (and last) ride with them started well - we had a nice ride out in Cambs through roads that I knew well. Then, one of the 'older gentlemen', riding 2 up on a big BMW, decided quite clearly to 'show the racer upstart how to make progress'. A painful few miles followed, with him riding positively dangerously, apexing early, running out of road on the way out, tying his suspension up in knots. It only stopped when I thought that I didn't want to see an accident, banged past and waved him down to a sensible speed. I was also treated to the Mantra of 'where there's room for one, there's room for two'. Which is patently nonsense at the extreme.

So, I totally agree with getting some instruction. I would, however, treat the IAM with a dose of caution - I'm sure some drivers are very good. But not all.

I would firmly recommend going on a trackday with someone who knows what they're doing. Or just a few drives out on the road with someone who has some decent experience.

And finally, well done for asking - it's a scary thing to ask. I see many riders/drivers who need to admit to themselves that they really don't know what they're doing. My driving is not nearly as good as my driving - so I ask questions and learn every time I go on track, and kudos to you for doing the same thing.

Mutt

1,034 posts

60 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
Oh and on this specific issue - and as we're in the Porsche forum and not the "Advanced" driving forum, thus I'm absolutely not trolling a group of people who subscribe to a world view - all I can do is sigh and exclaim, gimme a break!

Or an appeal to Fry and Laurie. It's the System, Jennifer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8oH8JHaE00
I am calm, honest. I thought slightly loose terminology was to blame. I have met people who insist on calling rev matching heel and toe and I have to admit it does irritate me more than it should.

Regarding "the system", I completely agree. I use heel and toe frequently on the road.

uktrailmonster

4,406 posts

69 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Mutt said:
The System says you should not overlap braking and changing gear. So heel and toe is a no-no unless is specific circumstances.
Balls to the "System" then! H&T downshifts are one of the joys of driving any sportscar and, as already said, it doesn't mean you have to be driving anywhere near the limit to benefit.


spyderman8

699 posts

25 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
356A said:
Hi. Okay, hopefully I won't get slaughtered? But how should I be driving my Porsche? ...I've never driven a sports car before... hopefully I won't get slaughtered here, everyone has to learn right?
Actually I think its a fair question and one that if a few of today's younger drivers asked themselves when moving up the ladder, perhaps our insurance premiums wouldn't be quite so high and our A&E units not quite so busy.

Can I recommend a course with CAT Driver Training, based at Millbrook in Bedfordshire? I've done three courses with them now and can thoroughly recommend them. The "Advanced Road and Track Combination" course would be a good starting point, but Colin can tailor the tuition for any scenario.

Raitzi

591 posts

81 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
uktrailmonster said:
Balls to the "System" then! H&T downshifts are one of the joys of driving any sportscar and, as already said, it doesn't mean you have to be driving anywhere near the limit to benefit.
Yes. You do not need much revs. The kid does pretty well in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcxHi6FlGLo


Mutt

1,034 posts

60 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
uktrailmonster said:
Balls to the "System" then! H&T downshifts are one of the joys of driving any sportscar and, as already said, it doesn't mean you have to be driving anywhere near the limit to benefit.
It was developed for slightly different purposes. In recreational driving, the system is a framework in which I like to operate. It's not dogma or a strict set of rules. Knowing when to use H&T appropriately still fits with a "systematic" type of drive in my (very!) humble opinion.

In the context of the OP, the adage of knowing the rules before breaking them springs to mind.

Raitzi

591 posts

81 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Rev-matching reduces engine braking which can sometimes even be undesired in track driving. The biggest advantage of rev-matching in normal commute is in winter time. Tires will lock-up more easily on snow and rev-matching reduces the risk.(I heard a horror story when I was in traffic school about this)

mollytherocker

6,894 posts

78 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Raitzi said:
Rev-matching reduces engine braking
It actually reduces clutch braking not engine braking.

Once the revs are matched you can use the same amount of engine braking.

MTR

DSM2

3,624 posts

69 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
spyderman8 said:
356A said:
Hi. Okay, hopefully I won't get slaughtered? But how should I be driving my Porsche? ...I've never driven a sports car before... hopefully I won't get slaughtered here, everyone has to learn right?
Actually I think its a fair question and one that if a few of today's younger drivers asked themselves when moving up the ladder, perhaps our insurance premiums wouldn't be quite so high and our A&E units not quite so busy.

Can I recommend a course with CAT Driver Training, based at Millbrook in Bedfordshire? I've done three courses with them now and can thoroughly recommend them. The "Advanced Road and Track Combination" course would be a good starting point, but Colin can tailor the tuition for any scenario.
I think your recommendation would be much more useful than asking on a forum, as this thread clearly demonstrates.

BertBert

7,059 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 13th August 2012 quote quote all
Mutt said:
Aaargh! For goodness sake! I've said it already. HEEL AND TOE IS NOT REV MATCHING!
It's only you saying that. Others are saying that heel and toe is rev matching (which it is), they are not saying that rev matching is heel and toe.

To the OP, doing some reading and IAM might be very useful (although the IAM expereince is massively patchy - the lot I went to were crap).

I'd do a track day (or airfield day) with lots of instruction if I were you. Great fun and you'll learn lots as well.
bert

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