will a water cooled 911 ever appreciate ?

[seawise]

Yell_M3 said:

No, simple. Porsche are no different to BMW or Mercedes these days. Sure a 1 off special edition may do well but in general, it's just another high-end German car.

painful though this may sound, it's largely correct. the watercooled cars will never really be worth much, even when 99 pcnt of them have been recycled. ok decent GT3/2's and perhaps really nice Turbo's will hold on to their value, but they are probably too closely related to the mass produced standard cars and as such built down to a price, for a relatively short life cycle, such is life at the sharp end.

with regard to RS derivatives, i suspect they are also unlikely to appreciate but will at least find a decent level - i guess in 10 years time a 996 RS, or 997 RS gen1/2 will all be worth similar amount in similar condition. although they will continue fall from todays prices i believe.

[sneaky schnell]

hman said:

I've hankered after a 911 since young, however I recently spoke to a colleague who advised that as a drivers car its a bit "unique" compared to a modern day sports coupe.

Correct, and better for it

hman said:

...understeer then snap oversteer, and a few other handling traits which thankfully we've all moved on from.

Only if driven badly. You don't need to be a hero to drive an old 911 well. Just use common sense and be aware of the balance. It is one of the best things about the car and enjoyable at almost all speeds.

hman said:

He uses his every day but even so he reckons a kettle is a much nicer everyday car, I'm now looking at a kettle instead...

Form you own opinion before spending. There are too many inexperienced rumour mongers out there.

[jackal]

hman said:

I've hankered after a 911 since young, however I recently spoke to a colleague who advised that as a drivers car its a bit "unique" compared to a modern day sports coupe.

Something about the front bouncing up and down over fast uneven roads , understeer then snap oversteer, and a few other handling traits which thankfully we've all moved on from.

He uses his every day but even so he reckons a kettle is a much nicer everyday car, I'm now looking at a kettle instead...

Errrrr...

[rdjohn]

GT Glee said:

rdjohn said:

The air-cooled cars were virtually hand built and so comparatively rare.

Someone needs to do a little bedtime reading

The early 1980's were boom years for 911SC and Turbo production, at about 12,500 units per annum.

In 2006, before the crunch, 36,500 911s were produced. To these, you also really need to include another 21,000 Boxster/Caymans as they are effectively derivatives of the 911 platform / engine that gave Porsche the economies of scale they needed for high profitability.

In the 1980s the cars were pushed around the factory floor on wheeled dollies in much the same way that McLaren now build the MP4-12C. At Porsche the bodyshells pass down a production line while sub-assemblies are attached. That is how they have massively increased both productivity and profitability. Only the badge, shape and configuration remain the similar.

As for the current GTs they tend to get hammered round tracks a lot of the time; this will tend to negate what a collector may be looking for in a car to keep as an investment, so do not expect 911SC RS type returns.

Cars rarely increase in value while a model is still in production which in water-cooled 911s is likely to mean a very long time.

[uktrailmonster]

It would be great news if the newer cars all depreciate indefinitely. I can't wait to buy a mint 996 GT3 for £10K or even a cooking 997 C2S for £10K. Gotta be mint condition though, not some crapped out old wreck - which I suspect the £10K examples will be in general. Question is how much will a sorted car be worth in future? £15K, £20K, £30K? Probably quite similar to C3.2 prices today i.e. anything from sub £10K to north of £30K depending on condition.

[ras62]

While production numbers have increased I dont think you can call the aircooled cars rare. For example in 1991 Porsche produced nearly 22,000 964's and I guess in later years even more 993's, so production methods were hardly as archaic as suggested.
While Porsche certainly make more cars these days (about 120k last year) the number of 911 variants built will be broadly similar to those 10 or 20 years ago.

[911Viking]

The GT2/3's will eventually appreciate, but think we are some years away... The newer 911's will all have flippy gear changers which eventually will make manual GT2/3's desired. The general 996/7 and now 991 models are made in big volume, so they are just well build sporty German cars, no future value.

[supermono]

I've had to hold onto my GT2 now for like 5.5 years waiting for the appreciation ramp. Having to look at it in the garage, clean it, service it. And you know the worst of it is that quite often I have to drive the damned thing about. My fear is that I might have to spend the next 5.5 years waiting too. Boy that'll be a massive bind but it's a cross I have to bear I

SM

[rdjohn]

supermono said:

I've had to hold onto my GT2 now for like 5.5 years waiting for the appreciation ramp. Having to look at it in the garage, clean it, service it. And you know the worst of it is that quite often I have to drive the damned thing about. My fear is that I might have to spend the next 5.5 years waiting too. Boy that'll be a massive bind but it's a cross I have to bear I

SM

I think that this is the correct way to view all of these fabulous cars.

[jackal]

911Viking said:

The GT2/3's will eventually appreciate, but think we are some years away... The newer 911's will all have flippy gear changers which eventually will make manual GT2/3's desired.

I am inclined to agree with this.

In years to come a 96Gt3 or RS with its lack of electronic damping, stability control, traction control and flappy paddles might be seen as something quite peculiar/cherished/halycon and very much "THE LAST OF THE ANALOGUES." If anything can make them appreciate, then perhaps this is it.

The gap between it and the likes of the 993/964RS will maybe blur a little as in spirit and feel, they share a common dna. For me, there is a line of evolution between 96GT3 and 97GT3 that is almost as thick and inpenetrable as there is between air vs. water.

[Mermaid]

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=161&i=248...

An excellent article, not a 911 though.

[mollytherocker]

jackal said:

I am inclined to agree with this.

In years to come a 96Gt3 or RS with its lack of electronic damping, stability control, traction control and flappy paddles might be seen as something quite peculiar/cherished/halycon and very much "THE LAST OF THE ANALOGUES." If anything can make them appreciate, then perhaps this is it.

The gap between it and the likes of the 993/964RS will maybe blur a little as in spirit and feel, they share a common dna. For me, there is a line of evolution between 96GT3 and 97GT3 that is almost as thick and inpenetrable as there is between air vs. water.

Yup, I agree with the 'last of the analogues' comment. I think the GT's will stay flat for another 5'ish years, then start the climb as manufacturers increasingly remove the driver. I love how that GT86 ad plays on this. Very brave.

The vanilla 996, 997 and 991 will continue to depreciate, although an early 996 may be close to bottoming out at £6k ish? The big problem is though it takes very little to make them scrap.

Long term though, everything appreciates! Even an Allegro!

MTR

[Redarress]

Water cooled GT2's and GT3RS's. These will appreciate long term

[marky911]

jackal said:

I am inclined to agree with this.

In years to come a 96Gt3 or RS with its lack of electronic damping, stability control, traction control and flappy paddles might be seen as something quite peculiar/cherished/halycon and very much "THE LAST OF THE ANALOGUES." If anything can make them appreciate, then perhaps this is it.

The gap between it and the likes of the 993/964RS will maybe blur a little as in spirit and feel, they share a common dna. For me, there is a line of evolution between 96GT3 and 97GT3 that is almost as thick and inpenetrable as there is between air vs. water.

Yep, well put Jackal.

For me leaving the air-cooled stuff behind for a while, the only thing newer that felt special enough to warrant a change was a GT2/3. The Clubsport option further adds to this.

The RSs will be the ones to have but a good Clubsport is 90% of the experience for a chunk less cash. I also believe the MK1 (GT3) will be more sought after than the MK2, but that's just my view and is why I chose a MK1. I don't want to open that debate again, they are both an awesome experience.

[jackal]

marky911 said:

I also believe the MK1 (GT3) will be more sought after than the MK2,

I agree and this IMO is already been borne out by what have seen in the classifieds in the lat 12 months.

[Mermaid]

Anyone got exact numbers of all GT & RS models produced?

[993kimbo]

Wozy68 said:

lol, I have an aircooled, and I'm not enjoying the replacement cost of most things failing at the same time on a nearly twenty year car.
Removed the exhausts last weekend, even found a rotton offside heat exchanger ..... blimey, what a job.

Mate, it never bloody ends.

We spend more in maintenance than the others do in depreciation.

[mollytherocker]

bodgerben said:

Once 99.5% of the cars have been crushed - the remains may be worth a bob or two. Don't laugh, look at MK1 and 2 Escorts!

There's a mk2 on eBay for £55k!

Mtr

[Crimp a Length!]

mollytherocker said:

bodgerben said:

Once 99.5% of the cars have been crushed - the remains may be worth a bob or two. Don't laugh, look at MK1 and 2 Escorts!

There's a mk2 on eBay for £55k!

Mtr

Yeah wish i still had my Harrier i owned in 1991

[james280779]

marky911 said:

I've just sold an air-cooled and was regretting it when I read James' post.

Then I read Wozys and remembered why I moved to something newer.

Honestly, I am really missing my 964T, for all the reasons everyone already knows about.
It's that age old dilemma between new and old but after almost 10 years with aircooled cars I was getting a bit sick of always having a to-do list.

My 996GT3 is rare, still looks good, although not air-cooled good and feels very special. Oh, it sounds simply awesome too!

Once I have the front end blown in and maybe a bit of ecu tweaking in the spring, I will have no to-do list. That feels good to be honest.
I'm going to run it until next summer when hopefully I'll have really gelled with it and it will be a keeper. If not I'll be back in a 964T. They get slated on here for not handling but I could make better progress on most roads than in my GT3. I know that because my mate who I bought the GT3 from was usually bouncing all over the road behind me, bottoming out, etc.

ETA - Yes some GT models will appreciate but is it worth sitting on them for years in the hope that they do?
There are loads of cars out there to try, so try 'em.

Edited by marky911 on Tuesday 9th October 09:04

So far in 6 months I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb and no rust, no electrical issues except heating being stuck on which is now sorted (paddles stuck open), sticking passenger door lock due to non use, replaced gearbox bushes and had a decent service. In that time I have put about 5k miles on her. Not bad at all! But I also found out it has been fully restored and rewired fairly recently so that might have something to do with it.