991 GT3 - latest pics
Discussion
spareparts said:
It just isn't powerful enough
Technically, it just doesn't have the displacement/torque. Porsche need an 8cyl engine to really compete. The equalisation rules mean that the intake restrictors and rev limits designed to even out HP/weight and ensure a class hierarchy hurt cars with small displacement and low torque more than they do large engines with lots of torque.
As they race in GTE class, the RSR is 455hp/450Nm@1220kg while the vette is 491hp/658Nm@1245kg
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 12th October 10:46
GT Glee said:
spareparts said:
But it is now 2012 last time I checked, and technology had moved on in 14 years. Time to take off the rose tinted glasses! Porsche can do better than Mezger.
It what way do you believe the GT1 derived unit will be improved upon with the all new DFI from the CS 3.8? The GT1 is strong enough, breathes enough, reliable enough 
Are you saying the 3.8 DFI is race worthy, i.e. 24hr endurance?
The Mezger GT1-derived unit has been proven to lack power compared to the more recent GT3-class competition as Porsche have been dominated by the more powerful Ferraris in recent years in ALMS/LMS/FIA GT class racing.
However - the DFI engine is a significantly simpler powerplant with fewer mechanical parts that is making very strong power/torque per cc capacity (in basic form, not yet tuned) with improved economy to boot.
Increased simplicity + increased power + increased economy + no oil leaks (so far reportedly!) = promising new engine future for Porsche? I cannot imagine Porsche investing so heavily in a completely new engine for the 911 without thinking it was making a long term investment in an engine with significant upside and scalability for road and racing purposes. Time will tell and I could be totally wrong...
Edited by spareparts on Friday 12th October 10:33
spareparts said:
No, I have never said that regarding the DFI engine.
The Mezger GT1-derived unit has been proven to lack power compared to the more recent GT3-class competition as Porsche have been dominated by the more powerful Ferraris in recent years in ALMS/LMS/FIA GT class racing.
However - the DFI engine is a significantly simpler powerplant with fewer mechanical parts that is making very strong power/torque per cc capacity (in basic form, not yet tuned) with improved economy to boot.
Increased simplicity + increased power + increased economy + no oil leaks (so far reportedly!) = promising new engine future for Porsche? I cannot imagine Porsche investing so heavily in a completely new engine for the 911 without thinking it was making a long term investment in an engine with significant upside and scalability for road and racing purposes. Time will tell and I could be totally wrong...
The decision powering the mezger replacement is margins. It costs approx 45k for one. Using an engine that costs 10k gives far better returns. The Mezger GT1-derived unit has been proven to lack power compared to the more recent GT3-class competition as Porsche have been dominated by the more powerful Ferraris in recent years in ALMS/LMS/FIA GT class racing.
However - the DFI engine is a significantly simpler powerplant with fewer mechanical parts that is making very strong power/torque per cc capacity (in basic form, not yet tuned) with improved economy to boot.
Increased simplicity + increased power + increased economy + no oil leaks (so far reportedly!) = promising new engine future for Porsche? I cannot imagine Porsche investing so heavily in a completely new engine for the 911 without thinking it was making a long term investment in an engine with significant upside and scalability for road and racing purposes. Time will tell and I could be totally wrong...
Edited by spareparts on Friday 12th October 10:33
For power comments, see my above ^
My info is 9A1 for 991GT3, 3.8 mezger for 991Cup.
Both will have paddles but one will be PDK and the other a proper sequential with a clutch pedal. Porsche will as usual pretend they are the same.
Time will tell though.
It's probably worth a mention too that without a big rule change, you cannot use DFI in GTE. Assuming there is a 991 based RSR and assuming it uses 9A1 then it won't be using DFI.
I have no problems with the end of mezger if what replaces it is better but having had plenty apart it will take some doing IMHO.
The mezger engine is extremely simple and robust.
As far as I can gather, all the talk of 9A1 improvements in terms of simplicity and moving parts are actually over the M96/M97 engines. A different thing entirely.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 12th October 11:20
fioran0 said:
My info is 9A1 for 991GT3, 3.8 mezger for 991Cup.
If this is the case then it says everything because 911Cup is single make and could essentially be the 9A1 if they chose.So with current info it is looking likely that GT class would be competed with the last homologated GT3 for 2014 and beyond, i.e. the 997.2 GT3 RS?
But.. fioran0, do GT homologation rules state the engine must be the same or is it simply a case of same layout and number of cylinders?
peralta said:
I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, but I fear that the GT3 may be following the path of the "911" and becoming a car that is softer, easier to drive and less hardcore than before.
While I sympathise I'm not sure why you're surprised. Every 911 has been softer and easier to drive than the preceding model: swb-lwb, 2.0-2.2-2.4, IB to SC to 3.2 to 964 to 993 to 996, 997 and 991. FWIW I am also sad at the loss of the manual 'box. But its not really surprising that Porsche need to follow the market, isn't the most common'y spec'd 911 still an auto cab?
SS7
Spot on. Cups have no homologation so could run whatever Porsche please. They set the spec though ofcourse with a view to having it eligible in as many formats as possible. It will indeed be very telling if that's what delivers though there's a lot of water to still pass under that bridge so all one can really do is wait and comment fully once they do.
The rules mean that the engines have to be the same ie engine cases, heads, crank etc though of course there's enough allowance that you end up with a monster 4.0RSR engine rather than a 4.0 street engine.
DFI can be removed and blocked up.
I wonder if longer term the RSR will be based on the 961 type 8 cyl that's supposed to platform share with gallardo/R8 if it doesn't just absorb into R8 racing completely.
The rules mean that the engines have to be the same ie engine cases, heads, crank etc though of course there's enough allowance that you end up with a monster 4.0RSR engine rather than a 4.0 street engine.
DFI can be removed and blocked up.
I wonder if longer term the RSR will be based on the 961 type 8 cyl that's supposed to platform share with gallardo/R8 if it doesn't just absorb into R8 racing completely.
My thinking then is something radical for the 2014/15 991 GT3 RS, or no 991 in GT racing because the F6 is already at its developed limit. Either that or as you say it is dissolved altogether (and 'GT3' remains in name only, i.e. street cars not built for the purpose of homologation).
Interesting times ahead with what appears to be a forthcoming logical conclusion.
Interesting times ahead with what appears to be a forthcoming logical conclusion.
shoestring7 said:
While I sympathise I'm not sure why you're surprised. Every 911 has been softer and easier to drive than the preceding model: swb-lwb, 2.0-2.2-2.4, IB to SC to 3.2 to 964 to 993 to 996, 997 and 991.
FWIW I am also sad at the loss of the manual 'box. But its not really surprising that Porsche need to follow the market, isn't the most common'y spec'd 911 still an auto cab?
SS7
The 996 GT3 in any guise is most certainly not easier to drive that the 993 and 964rS's that went before them. My 993RSR is fully rose jointed and runs supercup suspension but its still a pussycat to drive compared to my 996RS which in my opinion remains at the very top of the list of most involving and rewarding cars that i have ever driven. They will never make a car like that again and I find that a real pity.FWIW I am also sad at the loss of the manual 'box. But its not really surprising that Porsche need to follow the market, isn't the most common'y spec'd 911 still an auto cab?
SS7
The bottom line I suspect is that as Porsche sell into ever bigger markets, the cars that they produce will focus on the lowest common denominator or driver skill. The majority of 911 drivers these days wouldn't know or care anything about driver involvement and unfortunately - however much many of us on here won't want it - this philosophy will filter down to the GT models as well.
king automatic!
The Mezger engine is pretty much bullet proof!
spareparts said:
As great as the Mezger engine is, maybe the simpler (more reliable?) and more efficient DFI engine proves greater than the Mezger?
I am sure technology will enable Porsche to develop a 'better' engine than the aged Mezger.
I am sure technology will enable Porsche to develop a 'better' engine than the aged Mezger.
Steve Rance said:
The 996 GT3 in any guise is most certainly not easier to drive that the 993 and 964rS's that went before them. My 993RSR is fully rose jointed and runs supercup suspension but its still a pussycat to drive compared to my 996RS which in my opinion remains at the very top of the list of most involving and rewarding cars that i have ever driven. They will never make a car like that again and I find that a real pity.
The bottom line I suspect is that as Porsche sell into ever bigger markets, the cars that they produce will focus on the lowest common denominator or driver skill. The majority of 911 drivers these days wouldn't know or care anything about driver involvement and unfortunately - however much many of us on here won't want it - this philosophy will filter down to the GT models as well.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. An auto GT3...unthinkable.The bottom line I suspect is that as Porsche sell into ever bigger markets, the cars that they produce will focus on the lowest common denominator or driver skill. The majority of 911 drivers these days wouldn't know or care anything about driver involvement and unfortunately - however much many of us on here won't want it - this philosophy will filter down to the GT models as well.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Did it really cost Porsche 45k (Euros I assume) to make or is that the retail price for a fully built engine off the shelf? I struggle to believe that's the unit cost.Something's really wrong with Porsche's scalability calculations if after x thousand units as installed in everything from the first 996 turbo to the last GT3 RS, the unit cost is half the retail price of each car.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Given their homologation goals it would not have been viewed in the same way as other variants. Not a cash cow but a means to an end. Originally, they may have even made a loss to develop and certify a vehicle to be sold in such small numbers.I think $45,000 was meant because ~£25k sounds about right IIRC.
Great Pretender said:
Something's really wrong with Porsche's scalability calculations if after x thousand units as installed in everything from the first 996 turbo to the last GT3 RS, the unit cost is half the retail price of each car.
Had Porsche simply turbocharged the GT3 motor then agreed, but they're different from materials to number of main bearings.Do a web search about the use of GT3 parts in a Turbo engine and you will see what I mean.
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