991 GT3 - latest pics
Discussion
I don't think the Mezger engine needs to be continued for the coming 200 years to make a GT3 variant interesting. The new V8 in the Italia is a new engine and a masterpiece. If Porsche move the game on on the engine front in a similar fashion, what is not to like?
A GT3/RS was always about being the basis of the race cars. In the 997 variants there were already different gearboxes in road and race car with the latter being sequential. If they now also put different enginges into the cars, then what is left? I want my GT3 to have an engine that is also used as the basis for the race cars - period.
Seeing the spy shot interiors gets me worried as well. There were earlier talks of the GT3/RS becoming more hardcore and stripped down again. The pics show otherwise. To me this smells quite a bit too much like AMG-sation of the GT/RS range.
The more I see and read about the new GT3, the more I look at an Italia as next car...
A GT3/RS was always about being the basis of the race cars. In the 997 variants there were already different gearboxes in road and race car with the latter being sequential. If they now also put different enginges into the cars, then what is left? I want my GT3 to have an engine that is also used as the basis for the race cars - period.
Seeing the spy shot interiors gets me worried as well. There were earlier talks of the GT3/RS becoming more hardcore and stripped down again. The pics show otherwise. To me this smells quite a bit too much like AMG-sation of the GT/RS range.
The more I see and read about the new GT3, the more I look at an Italia as next car...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes that is ridiculous and I fully appreciate what you are saying.. I have not got to hand per part manufacturing costs, or what Porsche pay Pankl for rods and bolts, but looking at rebuild costs of said engine and what the rebuilders say about parts prices, it is not unreasonable to see, or difficult to extrapolate this into a cost of £25k to make.
Last time I looked a set of rods were £6k to you or I and that was a while ago.
You won't be the last driver to feel that way I suspect.I think that this is a dangerous time for Porsche. Previously,It set itself apart from it's Italian competition because of its function over form approach especially in the no compromise driving dynamic of it's RS/GT variants. The location of the 911 engine again helped a lot to create an enigmatic car that people continued to return to. Over the past few years Porsche have edged ever closer to the middle ground of thier mid engined competitors. This market is already pretty full of manufacturers who understand it and produce powerful, beautifully looking cars that are accessible to any half wit with a driving licence. If Porsche moves into this territory, they won't find easy to compete all I fear.
The GT3 engine Is a propper racing engine not a standard production road engine. There is light years between the two.It's engineered to hold together at several thousand Rpm over the detonating point of its road counterpart. It will maintain oil pressure at 3g of load. Anyone who has built a racing engine and had the misfortune to fund it himself will pass out if you asked him to build a 3.6 or 3.8 engine that is capable of revving to 11000 rpm without detonating produces up to 500 bhp and has a rebuild life of over 70 hours (race) and god knows how many hours road hours. There are N/A engines in road cars that may produce comfortable or even better output per litre results but they will not be able to suffer the constant abuse that a GT3 Engine can in a cup car race after race after race.
At 40k retail the GT3 engine is incredible value.
At 40k retail the GT3 engine is incredible value.
Dr S said:
I don't think the Mezger engine needs to be continued for the coming 200 years to make a GT3 variant interesting. The new V8 in the Italia is a new engine and a masterpiece. If Porsche move the game on on the engine front in a similar fashion, what is not to like?
A GT3/RS was always about being the basis of the race cars. In the 997 variants there were already different gearboxes in road and race car with the latter being sequential. If they now also put different enginges into the cars, then what is left? I want my GT3 to have an engine that is also used as the basis for the race cars - period.
Seeing the spy shot interiors gets me worried as well. There were earlier talks of the GT3/RS becoming more hardcore and stripped down again. The pics show otherwise. To me this smells quite a bit too much like AMG-sation of the GT/RS range.
The more I see and read about the new GT3, the more I look at an Italia as next car...
Are you really seeing that as a direct choice?A GT3/RS was always about being the basis of the race cars. In the 997 variants there were already different gearboxes in road and race car with the latter being sequential. If they now also put different enginges into the cars, then what is left? I want my GT3 to have an engine that is also used as the basis for the race cars - period.
Seeing the spy shot interiors gets me worried as well. There were earlier talks of the GT3/RS becoming more hardcore and stripped down again. The pics show otherwise. To me this smells quite a bit too much like AMG-sation of the GT/RS range.
The more I see and read about the new GT3, the more I look at an Italia as next car...
Not sure many will be able to ignore the £60-70k difference in price. If the new GT3 is c.£105-110k then even a used Italia is miles apart. And I'm not sure they are directly comparable anyway. The Italia is a more exotic less usable thing in most ways even though it's theoretically the "soft" version with the CS/Scuderia/? version yet to appear ( At well over £200k surely )
Steve Rance said:
The GT3 engine Is a propper racing engine not a standard production road engine. There is light years between the two.It's engineered to hold together at several thousand Rpm over the detonating point of its road counterpart. It will maintain oil pressure at 3g of load. Anyone who has built a racing engine and had the misfortune to fund it himself will pass out if you asked him to build a 3.6 or 3.8 engine that is capable of revving to 11000 rpm without detonating produces up to 500 bhp and has a rebuild life of over 70 hours (race) and god knows how many hours road hours. There are N/A engines in road cars that may produce comfortable or even better output per litre results but they will not be able to suffer the constant abuse that a GT3 Engine can in a cup car race after race after race.
At 40k retail the GT3 engine is incredible value.
amen.At 40k retail the GT3 engine is incredible value.
Steve has covered most of anything I would have added ref the engines.
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
Diesel130 said:
J-P said:
Phooey said:
There's a lot of people already writing the 991 GT3 off BEFORE they have even touched, smelt, seen (the finished article), and of course - driven it!
Easy to do if you know you want a manual!fioran0 said:
Steve has covered most of anything I would have added ref the engines.
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
+1 that's why the GT3s offered such increadible value for money£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
J-P said:
Easy to do if you know you want a manual!
Fairy muff, if you are adamant dual-clutch finger controlling 0.00000001s gear-changing isn't for you. But what are you clutch-pushing-rev-matching-up/downshifters going to be driving in a few years when you can't buy a new uber-performance car with a gearstick? 
Phooey said:
J-P said:
Easy to do if you know you want a manual!
Fairy muff, if you are adamant dual-clutch finger controlling 0.00000001s gear-changing isn't for you. But what are you clutch-pushing-rev-matching-up/downshifters going to be driving in a few years when you can't buy a new uber-performance car with a gearstick? 
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