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Old Trout

1,582 posts

61 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Nearly, 18 months and twice tongue out

Steve Rance

2,760 posts

117 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Dblue said:
Are you really seeing that as a direct choice?
Not sure many will be able to ignore the £60-70k difference in price. If the new GT3 is c.£105-110k then even a used Italia is miles apart. And I'm not sure they are directly comparable anyway. The Italia is a more exotic less usable thing in most ways even though it's theoretically the "soft" version with the CS/Scuderia/? version yet to appear ( At well over £200k surely )

I Hadn't thought of that you are right. Porsche - especially the RS's and Gt cars have been such a constant thorn in Ferrari's side that I Didn't give thought to the cost issue. In some ways perhaps that's even worse because they may run the risk of the 991 being considered the 'poor man's Ferrari'. I really hope that I'm wrong.

Carl_Docklands

3,212 posts

148 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Old Trout said:
Carl_Docklands said:
Some of you are deluded, most of the newer gt3s in the classifieds are sub 2000 miles, driven by clueless owners and never see the track. Just because the cars are manual you pretend there is an elite set of drivers in the club and going pdk somehow changes that - wake up call needed!
That is totally offensive - I'll have you know that mine has 4,600 miles on it. And it's been on track!

Does that make me an elite driver wink
pistonhead members excluded from my point wink

Allow me to write a parallel which refines my point. You are more likely to see these cars doing 10mph in the hands of peeps who just want the latest thing rather than gunning it at Brands. In this respect, PDK does not change the customer base massively like some people are suggesting - the noobs are already here and they are out there (probably right now), driving around in their RS 3.8, in first gear and trying to look cool. Once the newer car comes out, they will be dropped onto the used market, not even run in.

Edited by Carl_Docklands on Friday 12th October 21:16

J-P

2,842 posts

92 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Carl_Docklands said:
pistonhead members excluded from my point wink

Allow me to write a parallel which refines my point. You are more likely to see these cars doing 10mph in the hands of peeps who just want the latest thing rather than gunning it at Brands. In this respect, PDK does not change the customer base massively like some people are suggesting - the noobs are already here and they are out there (probably right now), driving around in their RS 3.8, in first gear and trying to look cool. Once the newer car comes out, they will be dropped onto the used market, not even run in.

Edited by Carl_Docklands on Friday 12th October 21:16
That can't be true, surely. I mean you'd have to be an idiot to buy a car such as this just to pootle about in town in, there are so many cars better suited to this purpose that also have kudos and posing power. Why would you choose to buy a car so unsuited to the task?

mollytherocker

11,122 posts

95 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
J-P said:
That can't be true, surely. I mean you'd have to be an idiot to buy a car such as this just to pootle about in town in, there are so many cars better suited to this purpose that also have kudos and posing power. Why would you choose to buy a car so unsuited to the task?
People buy the wrong cars every day due to being influenced by other factors such as image and status.

Bigger wheels and up rated suspension is a common mistake people make, thinking they are 'better' without understanding what they really want.

MTR
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Trev450

3,522 posts

58 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
mollytherocker said:
J-P said:
That can't be true, surely. I mean you'd have to be an idiot to buy a car such as this just to pootle about in town in, there are so many cars better suited to this purpose that also have kudos and posing power. Why would you choose to buy a car so unsuited to the task?
People buy the wrong cars every day due to being influenced by other factors such as image and status.

Bigger wheels and up rated suspension is a common mistake people make, thinking they are 'better' without understanding what they really want.

MTR
This is so true. I used to sell Lotus in another life and the amount of 'GT' type car owners such as Jags, Mercs, etc, that we used to get coming in to test drive Esprit Turbos was amazing. Most didn't have a clue how to drive and were often staggered by a how fast a small engined car would go. It was not uncommon to then get a phone call from a neigbouring 'GT' dealer a short time later asking us if we would bid on the car to buy it back.

cmoose

25,755 posts

115 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Think Porsche GTx buyers probably have a higher proportion of real enthusiasts than most high end sports cars. Anecdotally speaking, I've seen lots of very new GT3s at the Ring, on track days and also being spanked over the alps. Not seen a single current model Fezza in any of those contexts. Those are mostly seen in London doing 20mph. Like I said, anecdotal. But anyway.

That said, have to agree that the majority of GTx buyers probably still fall into the 20mph / trophy car category. And PDK is what the market demands. Mores the pity.

Harris_I

2,175 posts

145 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
I am surprised to hear this. My experience overseas was the majority of GT3 buyers were the sort who regularly tracked them.

As for the 991, not for me. In fact the only modern Porsche I'm currently considering is a Cayenne diesel. For thrills, I'll stick with my 996.


juansolo

2,786 posts

164 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Steve Rance said:
spareparts said:
But first and foremost, the GT3 is about going fast on track. And on track, if you want to be fast, you also want the car stable. PDK helps make the car both fast and stable. If Porsche did not offer PDK on the GT3, I would question whether Porsche were being true to the ethos of the GT3.
That's an interesting viewpoint. I see a GT3 as a pure undiluted driving tool. I fear that the agenda has changed somewhat and now it's focussing on a lower target and more's the pity as far as I am concerned!
Are they though? Have any of them been since the 996 RS, the last of the 'pure' GT3s. They've been gradually going this way with every iteration since.

majordad

1,755 posts

83 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
The modern line of Porsche GT cars, including the RS line from the 997 onwards are very usable daily and also on track. There is probabaly no one single type of owner, look at me, I do long drives, maybe 2 track days a year, and pleasure driving in mine. They are just so much an all round great sports car. This is what Porsche needs to be doing with the new 991 GT line, we will wait and see over the next few months. I have no doubt it will be a good % faster but it must also be a better sports car.

Dblue

2,299 posts

86 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
majordad said:
The modern line of Porsche GT cars, including the RS line from the 997 onwards are very usable daily and also on track. There is probabaly no one single type of owner, look at me, I do long drives, maybe 2 track days a year, and pleasure driving in mine. They are just so much an all round great sports car. This is what Porsche needs to be doing with the new 991 GT line, we will wait and see over the next few months. I have no doubt it will be a good % faster but it must also be a better sports car.
Have to agree with this. They are certainly more adept on a track than any rival but the vast majority of miles they do are on the road.
The essence of the cars means they are owned by a higher percentage of real enthusiasts than V8 Ferraris I would say and certainly V12 Ferraris. Rather less posing going on, rather less buying the latest trinket on the whole. Porsche after all have the Turbo to compete there.
Going to PDK doesnt mean its "less" of a drivers tool IMO. Just a more modern spec. Cars like the Italia and Superleggera or 599GTO couldn't honestly be described as lacking sporting credentials.
But, I have to agree it's a shame that the pleasure derived from pedalling a clutch and lever is to be no more.


Edited by Dblue on Saturday 13th October 16:27

OlberJ

13,974 posts

119 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
If it has a tweaked vanilla engine and is built at the same place, with the same processes will they even be GTx cars?

I see it's been a big thing for Porsche before but does it suit them to have a different range for what is simply a spicier 991?


cmoose

25,755 posts

115 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Well, something like a 964RS has a pretty mildly tweaked version of the then C2's lump, no? Different era and technology, obviously, and people will not doubt argue the base 964 had a pukka engine to begin with. But that hasn't stopped the 964RS being worth many multiples of a plain 964C2. Similar applies to the 993RS, I think.

Current 9A1 engine appears to be fairly sorted and solid - solid enough for Porsche to use it for the Turbo. Personally think PDK-only is much more significant in terms of driving experience and character of the 991 GT3 than, say, 480PS Mezger vs 480PS 9A1. Not that there wouldn't be any difference, but it would be subtle compared with manual vs auto.

I'd have thought you could achieve one hell of a driving experience based on the 9A1 engine. Unless you're actually racing the thing, isn't that what matters - the experience - rather than having bragging rights / being able to say the thing has a race engine?

Helicopter123

1,506 posts

42 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
OlberJ said:
If it has a tweaked vanilla engine and is built at the same place, with the same processes will they even be GTx cars?

I see it's been a big thing for Porsche before but does it suit them to have a different range for what is simply a spicier 991?
I would hardly call the DFI engine a vanilla lump - it's already being used in competition with success.

OlberJ

13,974 posts

119 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
By vanilla I simply mean the same derived lump as the c2.

I've no doubt these will be great but I can see them being a 991R and 991RS rather than Gt3/RS.

GTx seemed to denote something different before as opposed to a C2s+.


juansolo

2,786 posts

164 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
GTx denotes the series the cars were homologated for racing in surely. The fact they used a different engine was purely down to that process. Likely so they could use the race blocks in the race cars as the road engines of the time were not deemed suitable/strong enough. If the 991 race cars are running engines based on the new lump then that's what will be in the road car. They are not going to use a substandard engine for racing.

fioran0

Original Poster:

1,824 posts

58 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Helicopter123 said:
I would hardly call the DFI engine a vanilla lump - it's already being used in competition with success.
I assume you mean the success in the grand am continental tyre sports car challenge series?
That doesn't mark the engine out as anything special yet (though those guys efforts certainly were). M96/M97 has won there too.
9A1 may turn out to be special in some form or other but it will need the factory racing program and a higher level to show it.

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 13th October 20:15

fioran0

Original Poster:

1,824 posts

58 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
juansolo said:
GTx denotes the series the cars were homologated for racing in surely. The fact they used a different engine was purely down to that process. Likely so they could use the race blocks in the race cars as the road engines of the time were not deemed suitable/strong enough. If the 991 race cars are running engines based on the new lump then that's what will be in the road car. They are not going to use a substandard engine for racing.
what if the 991 race cars do not use engines based on the new lump while the street car changes? Where does that leave the GT3 name?
What if its less overt, say race engine is properly dry sumped and street one is integrated? How will this divide people?

Maybe we will all have been thrown the best fake in the history of motoring and there's an 8cyl 9A1 about to drop for both street GT3 and race program.
For all the test mules being left around for people to "spy" no one has bothered to get down on the ground and photograph the engine case. Why?
(I suspect sadly because everyone here is in a minority and most folk want to see the bling)

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 13th October 20:20

Phooey

6,102 posts

55 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
fioran0 said:
Maybe we will all have been thrown the best fake in the history of motoring and there's an 8cyl 9A1 about to drop for both street GT3 and race program.
For all the test mules being left around for people to "spy" no one has bothered to get down on the ground and photograph the engine case. Why?
Doesn't sound like an 8cyl, but at 0.38s, this isn't the regular sweet sounding 9A1 that you lot fear (ie sounds a bit lumpy) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B345VCHo7XA&lis...




Please tell me i'm onto something, and it's not the beer talking hehe


Edited by Phooey on Saturday 13th October 20:31

fioran0

Original Poster:

1,824 posts

58 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
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