Thoughts on this early 911
Discussion
Err Indoors said:
I hankered after a 930 a year or so ago, then drove one and thought forget it!
Terrible heavy steering/poor handling IMO/Not really that quick/what performance it had was difficult to manage, cover ground quicker in a modern day diesel.
Ideally if funds/space were not an issue you would want a modern day 911 and an old school atmospheric cooled one.
Exactly the same as me, that why I sold the orange car pictured above. There were a coupe of threads about it at the time, but I just hated driving it fast. Terrible heavy steering/poor handling IMO/Not really that quick/what performance it had was difficult to manage, cover ground quicker in a modern day diesel.
Ideally if funds/space were not an issue you would want a modern day 911 and an old school atmospheric cooled one.
That's not to say I don't love them though, fantastic looking things but they're simply not an "only one toy" option for me.
GT Two said:
Exactly or people with zero practical or mechanical know how who will buy as they think its so very close to the real thing. Put a 911R and a PS replica next to each other and the difference would be massive.
Also look at this.... £75k really?
http://www.paul-stephens.com/PS-Autoart-Retro-250-...
I could build a much better one for £45k
Sometimes the "opinions" on this forum kill me... One of the reasons I don't post very much on this site, although I read it daily, is because I am very aware that there are some hugely knowledgeable people on here, and I am here more to learn than to post any time I happen to have a (relatively uninformed) opinion. But this is a subject that I know very well, so I feel obliged to say something so that fiction doesn't become fact through repetition...Also look at this.... £75k really?
http://www.paul-stephens.com/PS-Autoart-Retro-250-...
I could build a much better one for £45k
First of all, PS Autoart cars are not replicas, and are not intended to be replicas (says so right on the website) that must be where you are getting confused, as opposed to the people who buy these these... I've owned 4 911s and have been a Porsche fan my entire life, am pretty good with a spanner and like to think that I'm relatively intelligent, so I don't think I'm the boob that you and 993kimbo make any purchaser of a PS car out to be. And I know a couple of other owners and they all have a lot more money, cars and knowledge about 911s than I will ever have (all of them have multiple collectible 911s in addition to their PS cars), which makes it probably if not likely that they've got it over you, too. These cars are intended to look generally like a pre-IB car from the exterior, but to have the most modern air-cooled car as possible underneath... They aren't intended to replicate any particular pre-IB model. The PS "fuchs" you referred to, which are on my car for example, are not intended to look exactly like fuchs (maybe that is why you thought they looked "cheap"), they are supposed to be a modern update of the fuchs style. They don't forge them in the shop basement, they come from a top manufacturer in Italy and are not cheap... And since you were trashing the quality of the upholstery you'd also be surprised to know which famous UK auto trimming/upholstery company PS had do my seats ...
Secondly, PS Autoart cars aren't "built to a budget with a profit in mind", the cars are built when a particular owner comes to PS and says what they want and what their budget is, and PS tell them what they can get for their money. The only ones that were pre-built without first having an owner with wish list and money in hand were the first two show models. Everything in my car is exactly as I wanted it, because I asked for it and had the budget for it. There is profit in there for PS, but unless you do it all yourself (which I am betting that you can't), you are going to be paying someone else "profit" to do it for you.
Finally, having spent 5+ years researching this before diving in, having inspected and driven many, many older 911s and replicas, and now having built one myself, it would be impossible to do anything like this for £45k unless you already had the donor car and had the tools and the skills to do every single job yourself. If you can do all this, congratulations and you and 993kimbo should go into business together to do a better job than PS does, but for the rest of the world that doesn't work. Do the maths on how much a 964 donor costs these days (even a tip), add in the cost of a full engine rebuild (PS uses all Porsche OEM parts), the cost of the bespoke body panels and a proper paint job and you are already over £45k. Add on to that the interior, and the other options underneath and you are off to the races (how much that costs is up to you). That is why the cars from PS and Autofarm cost what they do, and the stuff that Ninemeister and Singer do costs two or three times as much. Yes, there is profit in the price, but these places aren't charities and do something that I want and can't do myself, and I have every single parts and labour invoice on my car so I know exactly what the dealer's markup is.
I've attached a bad pic of my car (you can clearly see what I mean about the wheels though), but there are better ones in the May issue of Total911, where it was featured, if you want to check out the quality of the build. Rant over
I thought you might post. I like your car and Im not slagging it off.
What I was saying is that the cars I saw years ago looked cheaply executed, perhaps PS have mastered their art in recent years.
I have had several 911 project so know exactly what costs, and what it costs to do it properly. I KNOW I could build a better car than that tip car for less money.... and perhaps I will go into business building a couple of cars a year.
What I was saying is that the cars I saw years ago looked cheaply executed, perhaps PS have mastered their art in recent years.
I have had several 911 project so know exactly what costs, and what it costs to do it properly. I KNOW I could build a better car than that tip car for less money.... and perhaps I will go into business building a couple of cars a year.
JDH1 said:
Been hankering after an early 911 for a long time and have sat back as prices have risen. Really like the pre-impact bumper look and came across this:
http://www.paul-stephens.com/Porsche-911S-2.7/car3...
Bit of a cheat in that it's a 1975 car that's been given an expensive makeover. Looks lovely though and a lot cheaper than the real thing.
I know very little about these cars though. Any thoughts, opinions or information invited.
Hi , my guess is that you should settle for an early car and not a lookalike otherwise you might still be 'hankering after an early 911'. You will also need someone knowledgeable to advise you , or even to source one for you . My advice would be to contact Nick Moss. You can also get some education from looking at ddk , especially the resto threads to see what horrors go on under those lovely skins.http://www.paul-stephens.com/Porsche-911S-2.7/car3...
Bit of a cheat in that it's a 1975 car that's been given an expensive makeover. Looks lovely though and a lot cheaper than the real thing.
I know very little about these cars though. Any thoughts, opinions or information invited.
GT Two said:
I thought you might post. I like your car and Im not slagging it off.
What I was saying is that the cars I saw years ago looked cheaply executed, perhaps PS have mastered their art in recent years.
I have had several 911 project so know exactly what costs, and what it costs to do it properly. I KNOW I could build a better car than that tip car for less money.... and perhaps I will go into business building a couple of cars a year.
Sorry, you hit a nerve What I was saying is that the cars I saw years ago looked cheaply executed, perhaps PS have mastered their art in recent years.
I have had several 911 project so know exactly what costs, and what it costs to do it properly. I KNOW I could build a better car than that tip car for less money.... and perhaps I will go into business building a couple of cars a year.
wasn't trying to pick a fight.I think the quality has improved in some areas as PS have done more cars, Paul readily admits this (mine was originally build 5 out of the 30 he's done, and I had several things updated). He's using a better paint shop, for example, and different trimmers (mentioned before), and has been making constant detail improvements like better rear tail lights. But that has made the cost of the paint job (what he has to pay to the supplier) double, and getting a better trimmer increased cost as well, so the cost to produce these cars keeps going up in addition to the increasing cost of donor cars. That being said, even the early cars are still pretty good quality compared to a lot of the stuff I looked at before buying the PS car.
I'm not speaking particularly to the tip car (it was build 8 so also an early car, the person who had it done brought the tip car with them). I'm going to his shop today to pick my car up, so I'll take a look when I'm there... You may well be able to beat that particular car, although looking at all of the receipts from 3rd party vendors as to how much everything cost me, I honestly don't think you could do it for £45k unless you could do literally all of the labour yourself, including full engine rebuild, and only had to pay for the parts, paint, sheet aluminium (and did the panel beating yourself) etc. My car was particularly expensive because I wanted a 3.8 993RS engine with Cup cams, SMF, LSD, 964RS brakes and a 6 speed G50 from a 993, and we went for all Porsche OEM parts, but just the basic stuff alone is crazy expensive.
I bought a Supersport from Paul Stephens a few years ago.
He was very good to be honest and did everything he said he was going to do.
At this time he was just starting out with the back dating concept using a donor SC/3.2 or 964 & he explained and took me through the whole process over a pint if i recall.
The process is very thorough and the attention to detail outstanding.
It gives a perspective buyer the opportunity to have the old school look albeit modern day driving experience relatively speaking.
I am with the majority though when it comes to the commercials i couldn't justify parting with that sort of money, when lets face it you could get an original car 964/3.2 for late teens/20k lets say and maybe throw a few quid at it here and there.
This is just my opinion and i wouldn't condone anybody who has and will continue to buy these PS cars and Paul has obviously done well out of it.
He was very good to be honest and did everything he said he was going to do.
At this time he was just starting out with the back dating concept using a donor SC/3.2 or 964 & he explained and took me through the whole process over a pint if i recall.
The process is very thorough and the attention to detail outstanding.
It gives a perspective buyer the opportunity to have the old school look albeit modern day driving experience relatively speaking.
I am with the majority though when it comes to the commercials i couldn't justify parting with that sort of money, when lets face it you could get an original car 964/3.2 for late teens/20k lets say and maybe throw a few quid at it here and there.
This is just my opinion and i wouldn't condone anybody who has and will continue to buy these PS cars and Paul has obviously done well out of it.
Crimp a Length! said:
I bought a Supersport from Paul Stephens a few years ago.
He was very good to be honest and did everything he said he was going to do.
At this time he was just starting out with the back dating concept using a donor SC/3.2 or 964 & he explained and took me through the whole process over a pint if i recall.
The process is very thorough and the attention to detail outstanding.
It gives a perspective buyer the opportunity to have the old school look albeit modern day driving experience relatively speaking.
I am with the majority though when it comes to the commercials i couldn't justify parting with that sort of money, when lets face it you could get an original car 964/3.2 for late teens/20k lets say and maybe throw a few quid at it here and there.
This is just my opinion and i wouldn't condone anybody who has and will continue to buy these PS cars and Paul has obviously done well out of it.
I. Don't think this one is a Paul Stephens one anyway. The ad mentions another company. Perhaps better to get a backdate based on a 3.2 Cabrera if go that route...or could have your gt2 for less money. It would be my third but it's a bit moth-to-flame with those for me. He was very good to be honest and did everything he said he was going to do.
At this time he was just starting out with the back dating concept using a donor SC/3.2 or 964 & he explained and took me through the whole process over a pint if i recall.
The process is very thorough and the attention to detail outstanding.
It gives a perspective buyer the opportunity to have the old school look albeit modern day driving experience relatively speaking.
I am with the majority though when it comes to the commercials i couldn't justify parting with that sort of money, when lets face it you could get an original car 964/3.2 for late teens/20k lets say and maybe throw a few quid at it here and there.
This is just my opinion and i wouldn't condone anybody who has and will continue to buy these PS cars and Paul has obviously done well out of it.
cuse92 said:
Sometimes the "opinions" on this forum kill me... One of the reasons I don't post very much on this site, although I read it daily, is because I am very aware that there are some hugely knowledgeable people on here, and I am here more to learn than to post any time I happen to have a (relatively uninformed) opinion. But this is a subject that I know very well, so I feel obliged to say something so that fiction doesn't become fact through repetition...
First of all, PS Autoart cars are not replicas, and are not intended to be replicas (says so right on the website) that must be where you are getting confused, as opposed to the people who buy these these... I've owned 4 911s and have been a Porsche fan my entire life, am pretty good with a spanner and like to think that I'm relatively intelligent, so I don't think I'm the boob that you and 993kimbo make any purchaser of a PS car out to be. And I know a couple of other owners and they all have a lot more money, cars and knowledge about 911s than I will ever have (all of them have multiple collectible 911s in addition to their PS cars), which makes it probably if not likely that they've got it over you, too. These cars are intended to look generally like a pre-IB car from the exterior, but to have the most modern air-cooled car as possible underneath... They aren't intended to replicate any particular pre-IB model. The PS "fuchs" you referred to, which are on my car for example, are not intended to look exactly like fuchs (maybe that is why you thought they looked "cheap"), they are supposed to be a modern update of the fuchs style. They don't forge them in the shop basement, they come from a top manufacturer in Italy and are not cheap... And since you were trashing the quality of the upholstery you'd also be surprised to know which famous UK auto trimming/upholstery company PS had do my seats ...
Secondly, PS Autoart cars aren't "built to a budget with a profit in mind", the cars are built when a particular owner comes to PS and says what they want and what their budget is, and PS tell them what they can get for their money. The only ones that were pre-built without first having an owner with wish list and money in hand were the first two show models. Everything in my car is exactly as I wanted it, because I asked for it and had the budget for it. There is profit in there for PS, but unless you do it all yourself (which I am betting that you can't), you are going to be paying someone else "profit" to do it for you.
Finally, having spent 5+ years researching this before diving in, having inspected and driven many, many older 911s and replicas, and now having built one myself, it would be impossible to do anything like this for £45k unless you already had the donor car and had the tools and the skills to do every single job yourself. If you can do all this, congratulations and you and 993kimbo should go into business together to do a better job than PS does, but for the rest of the world that doesn't work. Do the maths on how much a 964 donor costs these days (even a tip), add in the cost of a full engine rebuild (PS uses all Porsche OEM parts), the cost of the bespoke body panels and a proper paint job and you are already over £45k. Add on to that the interior, and the other options underneath and you are off to the races (how much that costs is up to you). That is why the cars from PS and Autofarm cost what they do, and the stuff that Ninemeister and Singer do costs two or three times as much. Yes, there is profit in the price, but these places aren't charities and do something that I want and can't do myself, and I have every single parts and labour invoice on my car so I know exactly what the dealer's markup is.
I've attached a bad pic of my car (you can clearly see what I mean about the wheels though), but there are better ones in the May issue of Total911, where it was featured, if you want to check out the quality of the build. Rant over
Now that is a nice looking car!! First of all, PS Autoart cars are not replicas, and are not intended to be replicas (says so right on the website) that must be where you are getting confused, as opposed to the people who buy these these... I've owned 4 911s and have been a Porsche fan my entire life, am pretty good with a spanner and like to think that I'm relatively intelligent, so I don't think I'm the boob that you and 993kimbo make any purchaser of a PS car out to be. And I know a couple of other owners and they all have a lot more money, cars and knowledge about 911s than I will ever have (all of them have multiple collectible 911s in addition to their PS cars), which makes it probably if not likely that they've got it over you, too. These cars are intended to look generally like a pre-IB car from the exterior, but to have the most modern air-cooled car as possible underneath... They aren't intended to replicate any particular pre-IB model. The PS "fuchs" you referred to, which are on my car for example, are not intended to look exactly like fuchs (maybe that is why you thought they looked "cheap"), they are supposed to be a modern update of the fuchs style. They don't forge them in the shop basement, they come from a top manufacturer in Italy and are not cheap... And since you were trashing the quality of the upholstery you'd also be surprised to know which famous UK auto trimming/upholstery company PS had do my seats ...
Secondly, PS Autoart cars aren't "built to a budget with a profit in mind", the cars are built when a particular owner comes to PS and says what they want and what their budget is, and PS tell them what they can get for their money. The only ones that were pre-built without first having an owner with wish list and money in hand were the first two show models. Everything in my car is exactly as I wanted it, because I asked for it and had the budget for it. There is profit in there for PS, but unless you do it all yourself (which I am betting that you can't), you are going to be paying someone else "profit" to do it for you.
Finally, having spent 5+ years researching this before diving in, having inspected and driven many, many older 911s and replicas, and now having built one myself, it would be impossible to do anything like this for £45k unless you already had the donor car and had the tools and the skills to do every single job yourself. If you can do all this, congratulations and you and 993kimbo should go into business together to do a better job than PS does, but for the rest of the world that doesn't work. Do the maths on how much a 964 donor costs these days (even a tip), add in the cost of a full engine rebuild (PS uses all Porsche OEM parts), the cost of the bespoke body panels and a proper paint job and you are already over £45k. Add on to that the interior, and the other options underneath and you are off to the races (how much that costs is up to you). That is why the cars from PS and Autofarm cost what they do, and the stuff that Ninemeister and Singer do costs two or three times as much. Yes, there is profit in the price, but these places aren't charities and do something that I want and can't do myself, and I have every single parts and labour invoice on my car so I know exactly what the dealer's markup is.
I've attached a bad pic of my car (you can clearly see what I mean about the wheels though), but there are better ones in the May issue of Total911, where it was featured, if you want to check out the quality of the build. Rant over
JDH1 said:
I. Don't think this one is a Paul Stephens one anyway. The ad mentions another company. Perhaps better to get a backdate based on a 3.2 Cabrera if go that route...or could have your gt2 for less money. It would be my third but it's a bit moth-to-flame with those for me.
Yes indeed as I posted earlier, the car that is the subject of the thread title is not a PS Autoart car.Bert
cuse92 said:
My car was particularly expensive because I wanted a 3.8 993RS engine with Cup cams, SMF, LSD, 964RS brakes and a 6 speed G50 from a 993, and we went for all Porsche OEM parts, but just the basic stuff alone is crazy expensive.
Great spec. Some years ago I did quite a few miles in a friends 964 with a 993RS motor. Lovely carWithout trying to back-pedal, I'd like to say that I would buy a PS-built car all day long if I had the money. I've been coveting them for years, and hopefully one day I'll be able to buy one. I've seen yours Ben and it's worth every penny. A work of Art.
What annoys me, and it's probably the green-eyed monster rearing its head, is the mark-up they add on standard cars that most of us could by off PistonHead ads for nearly half the price. I feel many of them are too highly-priced for what they are.
I also have a personal beef - they only offered me mid-teens on my 993 manual varioram coupe as a p/ex on one of their cars. And I'm still sulking.
No offence intended to you Ben or anyone who owns a PS car.
What annoys me, and it's probably the green-eyed monster rearing its head, is the mark-up they add on standard cars that most of us could by off PistonHead ads for nearly half the price. I feel many of them are too highly-priced for what they are.
I also have a personal beef - they only offered me mid-teens on my 993 manual varioram coupe as a p/ex on one of their cars. And I'm still sulking.
No offence intended to you Ben or anyone who owns a PS car.
Edited by 993kimbo on Saturday 20th October 21:08
How can you be annoyed at the price they sell cars? If it's a car you want and the price is high and you feel the angst of that then they are doing their job well. If their price is too high, then don't buy from them. Very simple indeed.
Same on the selling front. If they are not offering enough for you then just move on. Why be offended?
Bert
Same on the selling front. If they are not offering enough for you then just move on. Why be offended?
Bert
Thanks for the compliments on my car. I wasn't fishing for them, I just felt the need to stick up for PS a bit because I think it is difficult and expensive to do these things properly, and having gotten to know Paul pretty well over the last couple of years, I think he's a pretty upfront guy and he absolutely works his butt off and is obsessed with perfecting the PS cars. I understand regarding the price comment, I agree this stuff is expensive and wish it was cheaper, but in the context of the wider market I think the cars are priced more or less correctly. A lot of these cars - original classic, 3.2, 964, 993 and PS Autoart - are getting shipped to Hong Kong, Singapore, and with the strength of the Oz dollar, Australia. Apparently they are a current rage in Hong Kong.
Back on topic, on the two PS cars in the thread(the backdated '75 and the tip PS Autoart), I saw them in the flesh yesterday and spent some time inspecting both. The '75 is beautiful. There is a tiny bit of wear on the door-side bolster of the drivers seat and a few minor fit issues on the dashboard and with the carpeting, but nothing major, all very small issues and it could probably be sorted quickly. The trim in the boot isn't a great fit, and I'd probably repaint the black parts on the wheels, otherwise good to go. Paint is perfect, body panels look good and aligned properly, engine is solid, and it sounded great.
The tip PS Autoart was pretty much perfect (we didn't start it up as it was blocked in and backed up against a white wall), except (1) being a tip, (2) the silver aftermarket head unit for the stereo looked cheap, (3) I personally didn't love the heavy silver stitching in the interior, but it was quality, (4) I would personally have gone with the RS door cards (and ditched the rear seats), and (5) the engine bay was a bit of a mess. 1-4 are personal preferences, and 2 and 5 are easy enough to fix. Though I don't love the interior it looks brand-new and beautifully crafted, leather is very high quality, the paint is amazing and panel fit is good. And, it looks like it is probably on its way to Hong Kong so someone likes it...
Back on topic, on the two PS cars in the thread(the backdated '75 and the tip PS Autoart), I saw them in the flesh yesterday and spent some time inspecting both. The '75 is beautiful. There is a tiny bit of wear on the door-side bolster of the drivers seat and a few minor fit issues on the dashboard and with the carpeting, but nothing major, all very small issues and it could probably be sorted quickly. The trim in the boot isn't a great fit, and I'd probably repaint the black parts on the wheels, otherwise good to go. Paint is perfect, body panels look good and aligned properly, engine is solid, and it sounded great.
The tip PS Autoart was pretty much perfect (we didn't start it up as it was blocked in and backed up against a white wall), except (1) being a tip, (2) the silver aftermarket head unit for the stereo looked cheap, (3) I personally didn't love the heavy silver stitching in the interior, but it was quality, (4) I would personally have gone with the RS door cards (and ditched the rear seats), and (5) the engine bay was a bit of a mess. 1-4 are personal preferences, and 2 and 5 are easy enough to fix. Though I don't love the interior it looks brand-new and beautifully crafted, leather is very high quality, the paint is amazing and panel fit is good. And, it looks like it is probably on its way to Hong Kong so someone likes it...
I apologise again.
I had a guy who used to make my guitars for me. Fifty times more expensive than anything you could buy off the shelf and twenty times better. Friends would call him a rip-off merchant, but no, they were bespoke and superb.
When, however, he'd get a bog standard guitar in to sell on, he'd mark it up as much as he could and people would pay the asking price because they knew that he'd never sell rubbish. Her was a tough canny businessman, but then you have to be when you work for yourself.
And back to Paul Stephens, I've not heard a bad word about the cars they sell or their service, and I'm going to shut up now.
Goodnight.
I had a guy who used to make my guitars for me. Fifty times more expensive than anything you could buy off the shelf and twenty times better. Friends would call him a rip-off merchant, but no, they were bespoke and superb.
When, however, he'd get a bog standard guitar in to sell on, he'd mark it up as much as he could and people would pay the asking price because they knew that he'd never sell rubbish. Her was a tough canny businessman, but then you have to be when you work for yourself.
And back to Paul Stephens, I've not heard a bad word about the cars they sell or their service, and I'm going to shut up now.
Goodnight.
cuse92 said:
I've attached a bad pic of my car (you can clearly see what I mean about the wheels though), but there are better ones in the May issue of Total911, where it was featured, if you want to check out the quality of the build. Rant over
That is very nice indeed! To be honest I prefer retro themed cars like this to more period accurate replicas. But ultimately I prefer factory originals to either. But I could be tempted by something like this or a Singer if cash was absolutely no object.Err Indoors said:
Fair do's but i'm not so sure to be honest, yes its a good place to have your money but that said, the ownership experience (forever keeping on top of things) coupled with agricultural driving experience maybe not for me. I hankered after a 930 a year or so ago, then drove one and thought forget it!
Terrible heavy steering/poor handling IMO/Not really that quick/what performance it had was difficult to manage, cover ground quicker in a modern day diesel.
Ideally if funds/space were not an issue you would want a modern day 911 and an old school atmospheric cooled one.
I'm not a big fan of 930s either, but an old air cooled n/a 911 in top shape is hardly agricultural to drive. Once you get beyond parking speeds, the steering should be light, accurate and with tons of feel and the handling is pretty sharp compared to your average overweight modern day front drive hot hatch. I think the problem is that most of these cars are now old sheds with ancient suspension components and clapped out motors. Of course a modern day 911 is light years faster and easier to drive, but not necessarily any more fun.Terrible heavy steering/poor handling IMO/Not really that quick/what performance it had was difficult to manage, cover ground quicker in a modern day diesel.
Ideally if funds/space were not an issue you would want a modern day 911 and an old school atmospheric cooled one.
When I bought my 996 last year, I had initial doubts about keeping my air cooled SC alongside. But now I've got used to driving both and invested in new springs/dampers for the SC, it's still my preferred drive on a sunny day and can keep up with pretty much anything on a twisty B-road.
uktrailmonster said:
I'm not a big fan of 930s either, but an old air cooled n/a 911 in top shape is hardly agricultural to drive. Once you get beyond parking speeds, the steering should be light, accurate and with tons of feel and the handling is pretty sharp compared to your average overweight modern day front drive hot hatch. I think the problem is that most of these cars are now old sheds with ancient suspension components and clapped out motors. Of course a modern day 911 is light years faster and easier to drive, but not necessarily any more fun.
When I bought my 996 last year, I had initial doubts about keeping my air cooled SC alongside. But now I've got used to driving both and invested in new springs/dampers for the SC, it's still my preferred drive on a sunny day and can keep up with pretty much anything on a twisty B-road.
+1 a well set up early 911 in fine fettle is light and delicate and sounds like nothing else! A neglected dog, or a poorly set up one, is heavy, slow and a right handful. And I run a 997 alongside so have something to compare with.When I bought my 996 last year, I had initial doubts about keeping my air cooled SC alongside. But now I've got used to driving both and invested in new springs/dampers for the SC, it's still my preferred drive on a sunny day and can keep up with pretty much anything on a twisty B-road.
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