Autocar's lament on the 996 Turbo
Discussion
uktrailmonster said:
I guess if you interpret 'focused' for unnecessarily harsh ride. Having owned a 964RS long term and read all the press reviews of the time I would tend to agree with their 'flawed gem' type appraisals. The factory damper settings were appalling if we're being honest about it. But it was a fun car overall and surprisingly more exciting than a standard 964. The only real compromise with the 996 Turbo is that it's a bit too comfy and easy to drive fast. Is that really a compromise or just years of engineering development? I suppose a GT3 RS is really the modern day equivalent of a 964 RS as a more focused track oriented car. I'd say a GT3 RS is more focused in this respect in terms of its differentiation to a standard C2.
i bought a 964 RS in 2007 and sold it this year - it was a wonderful car that gave me a great deal of enjoyment every time i drove it. the sense of occassion i got everytime i went out in the car was a buzz. the feedback it gave on the circuit also engaged me. i am not an engineer so won't try to analysis it's suspension set up, but it never struck me as bad as the contemporary journo reports put it. i have never owned a 996 Turbo but i did a fair amount of miles in my brothers and it struck me as a highly accomplished but somewhat bland (for a 911) tool. each to their own. uktrailmonster said:
Don't you think a GT3 RS is a focused car then? Porsche went a lot further in developing this car from a standard C2 than they did with the 964RS.
absolutely, i have owned 3, and massively enjoyed each one of them, but Sutcliffe wasn't refering to the GT3 RS. he was talking about the 996 Turbo.uktrailmonster said:
Don't you think a GT3 RS is a focused car then? Porsche went a lot further in developing this car from a standard C2 than they did with the 964RS.
hang on, i re-read your post - you are right, the do still make focused track/road cars such as the GT3 - and long may it continue, with or without pdk and electric pas. Back in the early '90s the 964RS was not well received. It was considered too harsh and compromised, particularly for UK roads. Added to that, we were in recession and sales were poor.
It was only later in the '90s, when track days started to become popular, that the 964RS's raison d'etre became apparent, and it has gradually acquired a loyal following.
Whether it's worth current price levels is determined by the market. IMO, it's not a 'blue chip' classic like, say, a 2.7RS, it's an enthusiasts' car, best savoured on a circuit.
The 996 Turbo is incredibly accomplished, but readily available and prices will inevitably be compressed by the newer 997 Turbo.
It was only later in the '90s, when track days started to become popular, that the 964RS's raison d'etre became apparent, and it has gradually acquired a loyal following.
Whether it's worth current price levels is determined by the market. IMO, it's not a 'blue chip' classic like, say, a 2.7RS, it's an enthusiasts' car, best savoured on a circuit.
The 996 Turbo is incredibly accomplished, but readily available and prices will inevitably be compressed by the newer 997 Turbo.
Geneve said:
Back in the early '90s the 964RS was not well received. It was considered too harsh and compromised, particularly for UK roads. Added to that, we were in recession and sales were poor.
It was only later in the '90s, when track days started to become popular, that the 964RS's raison d'etre became apparent, and it has gradually acquired a loyal following.
Whether it's worth current price levels is determined by the market. IMO, it's not a 'blue chip' classic like, say, a 2.7RS, it's an enthusiasts' car, best savoured on a circuit.
The 996 Turbo is incredibly accomplished, but readily available and prices will inevitably be compressed by the newer 997 Turbo.
That's far too sensible analysis for a PH debateIt was only later in the '90s, when track days started to become popular, that the 964RS's raison d'etre became apparent, and it has gradually acquired a loyal following.
Whether it's worth current price levels is determined by the market. IMO, it's not a 'blue chip' classic like, say, a 2.7RS, it's an enthusiasts' car, best savoured on a circuit.
The 996 Turbo is incredibly accomplished, but readily available and prices will inevitably be compressed by the newer 997 Turbo.
had a 964rs a couple of years back. A very nice one. See my profile picture. Got tired of it after 6 months and sold it. One trick poney in my view. Totally unsuited to UK roads. Beautiful thing to have in my garage though. Was boring unless mirror-like tarmac.
I had a superb 964 c2 manual with cups wheels and mirrors, which was lowered and was 3x nicer to drive 99% of the time.
I am on now on my 2nd 996 tubo (an 'S'), had it two years and love the thing. Would only change it for a 997.2 turbo 'S'. Hard to justify at more than twice the price.
2000x or so 964 rs were built.
600x 996 turbo 'S' or so were built.
At the current price level for both cars, I know which one I would short of and which one I would be long of.... oh hang on, already have this trade on...
I had a superb 964 c2 manual with cups wheels and mirrors, which was lowered and was 3x nicer to drive 99% of the time.
I am on now on my 2nd 996 tubo (an 'S'), had it two years and love the thing. Would only change it for a 997.2 turbo 'S'. Hard to justify at more than twice the price.
2000x or so 964 rs were built.
600x 996 turbo 'S' or so were built.
At the current price level for both cars, I know which one I would short of and which one I would be long of.... oh hang on, already have this trade on...
900T-R said:
The 996 Turbo is only 'incredible' out of context. In modern UK traffic it will probably be erm, not very exciting unless you endeavour to risk your license. For having fun in 2012 conditions, the 964 RS might just be the more relevant car (even if it's probably too stiff for UK roads; it's more about the principle).
In that case, I'd recommend buying up old Daihatsu Sportracks!It was incredible I ever made it from A to B at any pace!
It was scary to drive at 60 or over, & if nothing else it was stiff enough to bounce around like a rubber ball on UK roads.
Vroomer said:
Lots of insight here, but I still suspect Sutcliffe is scratching his head wondering why people will pay £60k for the 964RS when you can get a 996 Turbo for £20k.
If Sutcliffe can't appreciate that one's a hand built, limited production, focused, lightweight, fun to drive, engaging, visceral air cooled classic Porsche that is driveable on high days, holidays and the odd trackday, and is a relatively safe car to invest your money in. Whilst the other is a mass produced, four wheel drive rocket of a sofa, produced in fairly large volumes (that will continue to depreciate) I suspect he may be in the wrong job.Slippydiff said:
If Sutcliffe can't appreciate that one's a hand built, limited production, focused, lightweight, fun to drive, engaging, visceral air cooled classic Porsche that is driveable on high days, holidays and the odd trackday, and is a relatively safe car to invest your money in. Whilst the other is a mass produced, four wheel drive rocket of a sofa, produced in fairly large volumes (that will continue to depreciate) I suspect he may be in the wrong job.
in fact the 996 turbo was hand builtDoesn't the '64 leak oil ? Mine did. All do. I hate that. Also, worst looking 911 IMHO, and terrifying in the ice/wet. OK as an occasional use track car maybe, if you are prepared to trailer it to and from track days, and happy to struggle to keep up with modern machinery with your 260 hp.
I have an SL55. I have seen the light.
I have an SL55. I have seen the light.
The 964RS was never a good road going car. But as soon as prices took off, suddenly forums were full of 'See, I told you so, the car is fantastic, the market has finally woken up to that' *cue smug beardy faces*
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
As I will never be able to afford an RS I continue to hope the 996T prices will not take off. As soon as I have finished paying off the loan on the family dieselbarge I will be looking for a 996T as my mid-life crisis car. As long as they keep edging down in price I will be happy.
Then as soon as I have bought it I will of course be trying to convince everyone that they will be the next Porsche to become collectable so that I get some price appreciation.
Then as soon as I have bought it I will of course be trying to convince everyone that they will be the next Porsche to become collectable so that I get some price appreciation.
Slippydiff said:
If Sutcliffe can't appreciate that one's a hand built, limited production, focused, lightweight, fun to drive, engaging, visceral air cooled classic Porsche that is driveable on high days, holidays and the odd trackday, and is a relatively safe car to invest your money in.
<driveable on high days, holidays >err... Have you owned one??
most sensible post so far.
Mousem40 said:
The 964RS was never a good road going car. But as soon as prices took off, suddenly forums were full of 'See, I told you so, the car is fantastic, the market has finally woken up to that' *cue smug beardy faces*
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
Mousem40 said:
The 964RS was never a good road going car. But as soon as prices took off, suddenly forums were full of 'See, I told you so, the car is fantastic, the market has finally woken up to that' *cue smug beardy faces*
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
this,how a car drivers has no bearing on its depreciation or appreciation ,currently the lambo countach and aston vanquish are appreciating and they are in numerous ways crap.THe rarity factor is the key.They are bought as investments,nothing to do with how they drive.Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
Mousem40 said:
The 964RS was never a good road going car. But as soon as prices took off, suddenly forums were full of 'See, I told you so, the car is fantastic, the market has finally woken up to that' *cue smug beardy faces*
Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
Spot on. The 964RS is fun but nothing special to drive compared to various other much cheaper 911s. It's not that relevant to compare it against a 996TT though as they are quite different beasts aimed at different markets. For £60K+ the 964RS wouldn't even make my top 10 cars for either road or track. The 'investors' are welcome to it at that price, but let's hope they don't start throwing their cash at GT3s etc. Erm, no, it's still no good, but investors are looking to take their cash out of negative real interest rate bearing assets and dropping currencies and into anything they think will appreciate. So a lot of classic cars took off. Anything with a bit of rarity, pedigree, race provenance etc.
For a journo to look at prices and think that price is a function of how good a car is, is stupid. Otherwise you'd get one day where you'd get the flip in prices (4RS more expensive than 6tt) and with his logic we'd be saying 'Yesterday the market thought the turbo was a better car, but today the market thinks the 4Rs is a better car, how odd'
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