Millers 10W-50 Nano Oil - Good for our cars?
Discussion
It is difficult not to be tempted into being sarcastic in replying - along the lines that "yes we choose to recommend a poor oil in the hope the engines fail again, so we have to repair them FOC under our guarantee and we look forward to damaging our reputations as a result!"
Nano oil was not available when these engines were first manufactured so could not be recommended then.
There are a lot of different versions of Nano Oil. Nano particles are very small particles suspended in the oil that have various influences depending upon their constituent parts.
Some use Mollibdenum, Copper, etc etc. Generally they can be used to fill voids in the micro surface of the metal and suspend a slippery minute substance there to help support the pressure faces. They can also be used in conjunction with other additives that become more slippery at specified temperatures.
It is a very complex subject and it is a new technology.
If manufacturers recommended different oils retrospectively they could leave themselves open to litigation for the cost of not recommending the right oil first time.
Nano oil is not suitable for a new engine that is not yet run in and manufacturers rarely put in their manuals that when their engines start to wear out it would be better to change to "XYZ oil". In fact their whole advice is directed to newer lower mileage engines etc.
Rebuilt engines have a combination of old (but not worn out) parts and new parts.
As clearances wear (which they all absolutely do) the gap between parts increases and the temperatures often increase as well as the shock loads resulting. To address this a slightly thicker oil or one with additives designed to help makes sense.
Going back to older high mileage 944's and 968's owners often found their engines with lower oil pressure and more noisy after discarding a thicker oil and going back to the manufacturers original "as new" specifications and found when they changed for something more suitable for the age and mileage - that their cars improved.
It would seem to me that a manufacturer who was trying to help look after his products should recommend different oils as the mileage goes up - and if a new improved oil came on the market - recommended that when and where appropriate - but that don't - they are too busy with their next new product (which is what they are in business to sell).
We are in an on going serious and professional development and test programme with Millers Oils (with racing and road cars) and our recommendations are the best we can do for our customers but may change as time reveals something better or newer and test results stack up more and more.
I know of no other small independent supplier doing anything remotely similar and I think that forum contributors should think hard about our own circumstances, skills, experience and technical efforts (not the least of which was a 100% racing engine reliability last season) before rubbishing the outcome.
Baz
Nano oil was not available when these engines were first manufactured so could not be recommended then.
There are a lot of different versions of Nano Oil. Nano particles are very small particles suspended in the oil that have various influences depending upon their constituent parts.
Some use Mollibdenum, Copper, etc etc. Generally they can be used to fill voids in the micro surface of the metal and suspend a slippery minute substance there to help support the pressure faces. They can also be used in conjunction with other additives that become more slippery at specified temperatures.
It is a very complex subject and it is a new technology.
If manufacturers recommended different oils retrospectively they could leave themselves open to litigation for the cost of not recommending the right oil first time.
Nano oil is not suitable for a new engine that is not yet run in and manufacturers rarely put in their manuals that when their engines start to wear out it would be better to change to "XYZ oil". In fact their whole advice is directed to newer lower mileage engines etc.
Rebuilt engines have a combination of old (but not worn out) parts and new parts.
As clearances wear (which they all absolutely do) the gap between parts increases and the temperatures often increase as well as the shock loads resulting. To address this a slightly thicker oil or one with additives designed to help makes sense.
Going back to older high mileage 944's and 968's owners often found their engines with lower oil pressure and more noisy after discarding a thicker oil and going back to the manufacturers original "as new" specifications and found when they changed for something more suitable for the age and mileage - that their cars improved.
It would seem to me that a manufacturer who was trying to help look after his products should recommend different oils as the mileage goes up - and if a new improved oil came on the market - recommended that when and where appropriate - but that don't - they are too busy with their next new product (which is what they are in business to sell).
We are in an on going serious and professional development and test programme with Millers Oils (with racing and road cars) and our recommendations are the best we can do for our customers but may change as time reveals something better or newer and test results stack up more and more.
I know of no other small independent supplier doing anything remotely similar and I think that forum contributors should think hard about our own circumstances, skills, experience and technical efforts (not the least of which was a 100% racing engine reliability last season) before rubbishing the outcome.
Baz
Gibbo - I am not at work today so will reply later in the week with the right specification we recommend - but our recommendations refer to typical road use and for track use it is important to fit a deeper sump and/or acusump if you corner aggressively - or you may lose oil pressure in long corners.
Do you have the X51 deeper sump and what oil do you presently use.
Baz
Do you have the X51 deeper sump and what oil do you presently use.
Baz
hartech said:
Gibbo - I am not at work today so will reply later in the week with the right specification we recommend - but our recommendations refer to typical road use and for track use it is important to fit a deeper sump and/or acusump if you corner aggressively - or you may lose oil pressure in long corners.
Do you have the X51 deeper sump and what oil do you presently use.
Baz
BazDo you have the X51 deeper sump and what oil do you presently use.
Baz
Mine is a 997.1 C2S so there was no deeper sump option, it was 996 option only. Currently use Mobil One 0W-40 and change it every 5000 miles or after every track day. I do 5-6 track days per year on road tyres, I don't use slicks! To try and prevent loss of oil pressure I always over-fill the oil by 300-400ml before a track day so all the bars are lit on the in-dash oil readout and ensure it never drops below max during the day.
I want to try the Millers NT stuff, just need to know which grade 5W-40, 10W-50 or 10W-60?
Gibbo - I changed my oil to Millers Nanodrive 5W/40 last week and TBH I don't notice any improvement in power/torque, but these small differences are hard to spot when you have circa 550 anyway! The tickover definitely is quieter and I'm happy with this grade as my 911 doesn't get used in the Winter months anyway.
Some claims for nano oil:
- less friction
- less wear, therefore longer component life
- more power (a tiny % though)
- less heat because of less friction
- better shock resistance
the benefits only become fully active after 1 or 2 hours of running as a slip layer or 'tribofilm' needs to be developed before the benefits materialise.
F1 use this technology and I think I am right in saying it was one of the factors that gave Brawn the edge in their winning year.
Give Millers a ring and they will advise which grade to run ..... I am guessing that they will suggest one grade thicker than your current oil because it is so slippery !! NB Should give good benefits in a gearbox as well because of all losses due to friction.
- less friction
- less wear, therefore longer component life
- more power (a tiny % though)
- less heat because of less friction
- better shock resistance
the benefits only become fully active after 1 or 2 hours of running as a slip layer or 'tribofilm' needs to be developed before the benefits materialise.
F1 use this technology and I think I am right in saying it was one of the factors that gave Brawn the edge in their winning year.
Give Millers a ring and they will advise which grade to run ..... I am guessing that they will suggest one grade thicker than your current oil because it is so slippery !! NB Should give good benefits in a gearbox as well because of all losses due to friction.
Edited by legaleagleboy on Monday 22 April 16:46
legaleagleboy said:
Some claims for nano oil:
- less friction
- less wear, therefore longer component life
- more power (a tiny % though)
- less heat because of less friction
- better shock resistance
the benefits only become fully active after 1 or 2 hours of running as a slip layer or 'tribofilm' needs to be developed before the benefits materialise.
F1 use this technology and I think I am right in saying it was one of the factors that gave Brawn the edge in their winning year.
Give Millers a ring and they will advise which grade to run ..... I am guessing that they will suggest one grade thicker than your current oil because it is so slippery !! NB Should give good benefits in a gearbox as well because of all losses due to friction.
Shall see what Baz recommends, but based on that seems 10W-50 would be best shout, shall see if Baz chimes in, if not shall give them a call. - less friction
- less wear, therefore longer component life
- more power (a tiny % though)
- less heat because of less friction
- better shock resistance
the benefits only become fully active after 1 or 2 hours of running as a slip layer or 'tribofilm' needs to be developed before the benefits materialise.
F1 use this technology and I think I am right in saying it was one of the factors that gave Brawn the edge in their winning year.
Give Millers a ring and they will advise which grade to run ..... I am guessing that they will suggest one grade thicker than your current oil because it is so slippery !! NB Should give good benefits in a gearbox as well because of all losses due to friction.
Edited by legaleagleboy on Monday 22 April 16:46
As said manufacturers make recommendation based on new components / fresh engine and the biggest concern is what oil will perform well in all climates and even when a car has been stood for a long period and for that reason they generally go with a 'thin' oil or 0 rated as on a cold start it will get to the top end components quicker than a 'thick' oil preventing dry parts going metal to metal and they factor in for nutters who rev up from cold !
The problem is age / miles a thin oil in an engine with wear struggles to fill the gaps / tolerances 0 is like water when at hot operating temps
A thicker oil 10 rating etc has the ability to coat components more protectivley / comfortably more lambswool sweater vs Lycra 0
I know of people who have bought the latest greatest most expensive thin fully synth oil for there 10 year old car thinking they are doing the right thing only to end up with a noisy smoker with leaks that was previously sound on good old thicker semi synth.
The problem is age / miles a thin oil in an engine with wear struggles to fill the gaps / tolerances 0 is like water when at hot operating temps
A thicker oil 10 rating etc has the ability to coat components more protectivley / comfortably more lambswool sweater vs Lycra 0
I know of people who have bought the latest greatest most expensive thin fully synth oil for there 10 year old car thinking they are doing the right thing only to end up with a noisy smoker with leaks that was previously sound on good old thicker semi synth.
Having regrettably got into quite an argument on another forum about this subject it seems that "which oil you use", "how you bring up your children", "politics" and "religion" are subjects people have such different views on - you can never win and should keep out of it if possible.
However I don't understand the logic of believing that the company that designed the engines we repair all day long know better than us when ours then do not fail after the modifications we have to carry out and the rebuilds nor that Porsche would not have commercial reasons for recommending certain product suppliers. Their recommended oils didn't stop bore scoring or IMS failures - and neither did they fix the problems by design improvements - but eventually had to rely on a whole new design to get out of trouble.
But guys and galls - I don't really care too much which oil you choose to use - I only know that we have a vested interest in using and recommending the very best available to our customers (for reputation and reliability) and that we could never have survived the consequences of the kind of problems that Porsche were big and remote enough to live through - so it is much more important for us to give the very best advice we can or all our livelihoods are at risk.
Baz
p.s. many thanks for all the supportive comments!!!!
However I don't understand the logic of believing that the company that designed the engines we repair all day long know better than us when ours then do not fail after the modifications we have to carry out and the rebuilds nor that Porsche would not have commercial reasons for recommending certain product suppliers. Their recommended oils didn't stop bore scoring or IMS failures - and neither did they fix the problems by design improvements - but eventually had to rely on a whole new design to get out of trouble.
But guys and galls - I don't really care too much which oil you choose to use - I only know that we have a vested interest in using and recommending the very best available to our customers (for reputation and reliability) and that we could never have survived the consequences of the kind of problems that Porsche were big and remote enough to live through - so it is much more important for us to give the very best advice we can or all our livelihoods are at risk.
Baz
p.s. many thanks for all the supportive comments!!!!
Having always used mobil 1, what used to be called their motorsport grade 15W 50 that is no longer available. What would you recomend Baz. It is a 3.2 Carrera. Whilst picking your brain. Gearbox oil. G50 gearbox with a ZF LSD so I know I need a different grade to the norm because of the diff. The gear change is notchy until the gearbox oil has warmed up. In fact I would go as far to say it is crap for a G50 and the gearbox has been stripped and it is not worn out. Your recomendations would be gratefully received.
hartech said:
Gibbo - I am not at work today so will reply later in the week with the right specification we recommend - but our recommendations refer to typical road use and for track use it is important to fit a deeper sump and/or acusump if you corner aggressively - or you may lose oil pressure in long corners.
Baz
Hi Baz,Baz
For a 100k miles 996 3.4, would you put in Millers 10W-50 or Millers 5w-40?
Thanks.
I use CFS 10W-50 because Hartech recommend it (and use it themselves in their service plan).
Mobil 1 hasn't exactly served 911s well in the last 15 years, has it?
My experience is the car definitely starts more quickly and revs a little more freely (plus I get some comfort in knowing it's what Hartech protect their own liability with).
Opie Oils sometimes have 20%-off sales of the stuff and that's when I stock up, every year.
Mobil 1 hasn't exactly served 911s well in the last 15 years, has it?
My experience is the car definitely starts more quickly and revs a little more freely (plus I get some comfort in knowing it's what Hartech protect their own liability with).
Opie Oils sometimes have 20%-off sales of the stuff and that's when I stock up, every year.
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