Chris Harris drives the 991 GT3 enjoy
Discussion
toppstuff said:
I can't shake off the sense that Porsche should have achieved more.
Serious question; What 'more' would you of liked to of seen? Put a turbo on the GT3? - it'd certainly be quicker than a GTR then, but aren't we confusing the n/a 2-seater RWD GT3 with the 911 turbo? I'm so far very happy with what i can see Porsche has done with their new GT3. If the 991 turbo fails to grab the crown back from the GTR, then i think we have something to complain about..toppstuff said:
sleep envy said:
mrdemon said:
but it's now like a GTR but slower and £30k more !
you do this on purpose, don't you?
Porsche should feel relieved that Nissan have not taken the GT-R, put it on a diet so it weighs 10-20% less, adjust it's settings to increase feedback and involvement and pump it out to the market at £100k. I fear that if Datsun offered a "GT-R GT3 spec" it would utterly humiliate the Porsche. After all, the standard Datsun is so heavy it must have a hot tub in the boot, but it is still quicker.
Porsche should be happy that Nissan prefer not to sell a more hardcore GT-R. Nissan clearly choose to deliberately dial down driver feedback and involvement in the GT-R rather than increase involvement and interaction. Nissan are not smart enough, it seems, to realise the impact they could make if they tried.
Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
As for the difference in price you'll always see that simply because Nissan aren't percieved to be a premium or luxury brand.
sleep envy said:
I don't - the cars are in different segments of the performance car market.
Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
As for the difference in price you'll always see that simply because Nissan aren't percieved to be a premium or luxury brand.
and removed both turbos!Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
As for the difference in price you'll always see that simply because Nissan aren't percieved to be a premium or luxury brand.
AndyBrew said:
and removed both turbos!
I deliberately didn't mention that simply because then you're going down the line of really picking differences in the hardware rather than looking at the differences of the market placement.One is a predominately road biased car that can be used on track and the other is a road car. IIRC, didn't Nissan state that they would void the warranty if the car had been used on track?
Where the engine sits, how many cyclinders it has, whether it's NA for FI doesn't really factor in my humble O.
Edited by sleep envy on Thursday 13th June 12:44
MCSL said:
Serious question; What 'more' would you of liked to of seen? Put a turbo on the GT3? - it'd certainly be quicker than a GTR then, but aren't we confusing the n/a 2-seater RWD GT3 with the 911 turbo? I'm so far very happy with what i can see Porsche has done with their new GT3. If the 991 turbo fails to grab the crown back from the GTR, then i think we have something to complain about..
Perhaps a GT2RS?sleep envy said:
I don't - the cars are in different segments of the performance car market.
Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
As for the difference in price you'll always see that simply because Nissan aren't percieved to be a premium or luxury brand.
I'm not sure what my point is, but you are missing it... Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
As for the difference in price you'll always see that simply because Nissan aren't percieved to be a premium or luxury brand.
Of course the GT3 and the GT-R are in different segments, I've already acknowledged that.
But the thing is this - it is pretty clear that if Nissan made a "GT3" spec car which was lighter and tuned for more involvement, it would'nt be "head to head" with Porsche as you put it - I fear it would be in a different class, given that the heavy truck the car is as standard is already able to lap faster, accelerate harder etc..
And as for the notion of premium or luxury brand, sure, in the market place I know this matters. But that is'nt relevant to my point. My point is that the very best that Porsche can offer should not be technically and statistically inferior to a 6 year old GT car which weighs a whole lot more. The "driver involvement" thing is irrelevant - Nissan could add that if they wanted to - but what is relevant is that after all these years it is not Porsche who are leading the way in terms of technology and outright performance at 'affordable" price levels ( below hypercar prices ) - It is a japanese manufacturer of family hatches that is doing it. This either tells us that Porsche are not as clever as they think they are, or that Nissan are geniuses. I don't know which of these statements are true ..
toppstuff said:
I'm not sure what my point is, but you are missing it...
I wasn't commenting on your point but Mr Demon's.toppstuff said:
But the thing is this - it is pretty clear that if Nissan made a "GT3" spec car which was lighter and tuned for more involvement, it would'nt be "head to head" with Porsche as you put it - I fear it would be in a different class, given that the heavy truck the car is as standard is already able to lap faster, accelerate harder etc..
Er, ok. I'm sure that'll be a hot topic of discussion when Nissan do decide to sell a GT3 GT-R.toppstuff said:
but what is relevant is that after all these years it is not Porsche who are leading the way in terms of technology and outright performance at 'affordable" price levels ( below hypercar prices ) - It is a japanese manufacturer of family hatches that is doing it. This either tells us that Porsche are not as clever as they think they are, or that Nissan are geniuses. I don't know which of these statements are true ..
Have Porsche ever offered that? I always thought performance bargains came from the Orient (for tech) or the USA (for capacity)?sleep envy said:
I don't - the cars are in different segments of the performance car market.
Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
er Nissan do offer this, it's called a track pack with no rear seats etc etc.Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
But again they are all still road cars at the end of the day. not race cars !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 13th June 12:59
mrdemon said:
sleep envy said:
I don't - the cars are in different segments of the performance car market.
Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
er Nissan do offer this, it's called a track pack with no rear seats etc etc.Sure, if Nissan made the GT-R lighter, offered a cage and extinguishers, removed the sound deading, etc, etc they'd be head to head. But Nissan don't.
mrdemon said:
er Nissan do offer this, it's called a track pack with no rear seats etc etc.
But again they are all still road cars at the end of the day. not race cars !!!
IMO the "track pack" is a pathetic attempt. It shows how some people at Nissan really do not understand the market. But again they are all still road cars at the end of the day. not race cars !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 13th June 12:59
The track pack car is barely any lighter. The front seats still weigh as much as a DFS sofa. And no major effort has been made with the steering and suspension to make the car more involving. Nissan have never tried to seriously reduce the GTR's weight even though there are some obvious ways to do it. A GT-R even weighing 1500kg would be invincible. They could do it relatively easily. Fortunately for Porsche they have'nt chosen to.
Skrambles said:
The same thought occurred to me, when looking at the 991 GT3 brochure. If buying a 991, I doubt that I'd go for a turbo (unless needing 4 seats) as the new gt3 is already so fast and so refined (compared to its predecessor) that it would make just as good a GT/everyday car. Plus, the exhaust on the turbo tends to be so disappointing by comparison with the spine-tingling gt3 notes.
Just out of curiosity (honest), has the full allocation of 2013/2014 cars been pre-ordered?
Agree entirely on the point relating to Turbo exhaust note - this is the main reason I'm swopping my 997 g2 Turbo for the GT3 !
Just out of curiosity (honest), has the full allocation of 2013/2014 cars been pre-ordered?
Agree entirely on the point relating to Turbo exhaust note - this is the main reason I'm swopping my 997 g2 Turbo for the GT3 !
sleep envy said:
Stiffer suspension, 'air guides' and different seat material covering isn't really engineering a car for the track.
But it's a road car as is the 991 GT3 ?the GTR races also (unlike the 991 Turbo), I am not sure what people don't get.
to me it's the same market and Nissan are taking the car racing and winning events with it to up the cars status.
The Turbo is NOT the same market it's twice the price !
toppstuff said:
mrdemon said:
er Nissan do offer this, it's called a track pack with no rear seats etc etc.
But again they are all still road cars at the end of the day. not race cars !!!
IMO the "track pack" is a pathetic attempt. It shows how some people at Nissan really do not understand the market. But again they are all still road cars at the end of the day. not race cars !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 13th June 12:59
The track pack car is barely any lighter. The front seats still weigh as much as a DFS sofa. And no major effort has been made with the steering and suspension to make the car more involving. Nissan have never tried to seriously reduce the GTR's weight even though there are some obvious ways to do it. A GT-R even weighing 1500kg would be invincible. They could do it relatively easily. Fortunately for Porsche they have'nt chosen to.
toppstuff said:
IMO the "track pack" is a pathetic attempt. It shows how some people at Nissan really do not understand the market.
The track pack car is barely any lighter. The front seats still weigh as much as a DFS sofa. And no major effort has been made with the steering and suspension to make the car more involving. Nissan have never tried to seriously reduce the GTR's weight even though there are some obvious ways to do it. A GT-R even weighing 1500kg would be invincible. They could do it relatively easily. Fortunately for Porsche they have'nt chosen to.
GTR use the weight to gain grip, the car does 2.7 to 60 mph at the end of the day.The track pack car is barely any lighter. The front seats still weigh as much as a DFS sofa. And no major effort has been made with the steering and suspension to make the car more involving. Nissan have never tried to seriously reduce the GTR's weight even though there are some obvious ways to do it. A GT-R even weighing 1500kg would be invincible. They could do it relatively easily. Fortunately for Porsche they have'nt chosen to.
If you simply remove weight it will have less grip. so not that easy is it :-)
Then you need aero and real down force and that's a whole new ball game.
I guess in 2016 when the new GTR comes out we might see one with less weight and more aero, then the ball games will have moved big time again and I am sure it will kill every thing again.
as for racing a GTR, it seems they know what to do , er watch this vid, it is very amusing and a great watch.
http://youtu.be/Xi2YRj6gqBA
mrdemon said:
GTR use the weight to gain grip, the car does 2.7 to 60 mph at the end of the day.
If you simply remove weight it will have less grip. so not that easy is it :-)
Im not sure that is the key.If you simply remove weight it will have less grip. so not that easy is it :-)
4 WD, lag-free turbos and lots of short-ratio stacked gears in a double clutch gearbox are the keys IMO.
If it was lighter, it would be faster still.
Anyway, apologies for the thread hijack ! Back to the GT3..
mrdemon said:
as for racing a GTR, it seems they know what to do , er watch this vid, it is very amusing and a great watch.
http://youtu.be/Xi2YRj6gqBA
Holy crap.http://youtu.be/Xi2YRj6gqBA
So much faster it seems like it is in a different category ! GT3 Pork, 458 and MP4 12 GT3's look like Clio cup cars in comparison.
O/T i know, but v impressive.
Skrambles said:
The same thought occurred to me, when looking at the 991 GT3 brochure. If buying a 991, I doubt that I'd go for a turbo (unless needing 4 seats) as the new gt3 is already so fast and so refined (compared to its predecessor) that it would make just as good a GT/everyday car. Plus, the exhaust on the turbo tends to be so disappointing by comparison with the spine-tingling gt3 notes.
Just out of curiosity (honest), has the full allocation of 2013/2014 cars been pre-ordered?
Back to the gt3 leaving behind with no regrets that bulky by crude effort which is the gt-r. Just out of curiosity (honest), has the full allocation of 2013/2014 cars been pre-ordered?
1. How do you know it's more comfortable ?? Who says? A dual-clutch should not be enough to make it a s-class will it?
2. Turbo noise or lack thereof (or dyson noise) was a known problem. Do you think they won't have addressed it in the all new model in a market which seems to be obsessed about making everybody hear how mean you sportscar is?
3. No. Not all allocated, there's no limited amount of allocations. They will just produce the car or limited amount of time. Probably 12-15months. All OPC I have spoken to have confirmed Porsche I unlikely to turn down firm orders for a while. They will when they end production cycle as they did with previous ones.
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