996 engines; what are the odds?

[GregorFuk]

This aspect of Pistonheads is the one I find the most irritating. If you believed everything you read on this forum you's be scratching your head as to why you don't see the road sides littered with broken down Porsches. It unnecessarily puts people off seriously good cars.

[marky911]

It's all about how happy you are with the risks Gregor.
If you would be happy to spend £8k on an engine rebuild on a car worth £12k or so, then go for it.

I personally wouldn't be, as you can't exactly add that money on to the sale price when you decide to move on.

Plus if I had a £15k budget for a car, I'd rather spend £13k-£14k on the car and leave a grand or two in reserve, rather than spend 8 or 9 to leave 6 or 7 in reserve incase it went bang.
That is why I'd be looking at some sort of BMW or if it's for weekend use an Elise or something.

[mikeyr]

GregorFuk said:

This aspect of Pistonheads is the one I find the most irritating. If you believed everything you read on this forum you's be scratching your head as to why you don't see the road sides littered with broken down Porsches. It unnecessarily puts people off seriously good cars.

Mine is on its second engine and has had to have that subsequently one rebuilt by Hartech... These are expensive fixes so think the OP is right to be concerned.

Whilst it might not be as common as a K series HG failure the cost of a rebuild is big enough to make purchasing the car a concern. But that has meant the prices dropping so those of us that don't mind taking a gamble can afford a car we'd normally not be able to

[shoestring7]

mikeyr said:

GregorFuk said:

This aspect of Pistonheads is the one I find the most irritating. If you believed everything you read on this forum you's be scratching your head as to why you don't see the road sides littered with broken down Porsches. It unnecessarily puts people off seriously good cars.

Mine is on its second engine and has had to have that subsequently one rebuilt by Hartech... These are expensive fixes so think the OP is right to be concerned.

Whilst it might not be as common as a K series HG failure the cost of a rebuild is big enough to make purchasing the car a concern. But that has meant the prices dropping so those of us that don't mind taking a gamble can afford a car we'd normally not be able to

So given the choice again would you buy a car with an expensive warranty or put £8k into an M96 deposit account and hope for the best?

SS7

[mikeyr]

shoestring7 said:

So given the choice again would you buy a car with an expensive warranty or put £8k into an M96 deposit account and hope for the best?

SS7

I'd do what I did this time round - buy the car after the previous owners have paid out well over 20k on engine work alone

[mikeyr]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sorry CMoose, I was probably over emphasising it to stop this degenerating in to another "do they/don't they all blow up" argument.

But the volume of sales combined with the high running costs (of which engine issues must be included) have combined to make them great value.

[ScienceTeacher]

I again remark that the over all cost is factored in to the Hartech maintenance plan fee. This is less than a 993, and considerably less than a turbo. Hartech price the risk and it's good value.

[mikeyr]

I have the invoice for a new engine and auxillaries from an OPC dated 2007 - it's a somewhat phenomenal £17k. Add a Hartech rebuild from a couple of years back and the total is well into the 20s!

[mikeyr]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Think there were just over 4 years between the two. Different owners too I believe (don't have paperwork in front of me).

EDIT:
The list of receipts with the car says:
12/02/07 - New engine and 2 new tyres - 47k
15/10/11 - Hartech Rebuild - 79k

I've got proof of £36k spent on running costs over the last 11 years so it's not been neglected. Both original porsche engines only lasted about 40k each... ouch!

(all this talk of my car is making me impatient for the weekend - need to take it for a - we could do with a Tiptronic smilie here of me hunting for the plus button on the steering wheel)

Edited by mikeyr on Friday 13th December 12:56

[Bebs]

As per my recent thread - I bought a 996 tip 3.4 with 77K on the clock from 911 Virgin 9 months ago.
Very well looked after car. I put 4500 miles on it and the engine lunched itself whilst abroad. Flat bed home.
We believe valves have dropped into piston 4 & 5 and have gone through the pistons themselves leaving debris in the sump pan.
It is currently at Hartech for a strip down and rebuild.
So I'd say by all means buy a £10-13K 996 but have 5-8K slush fund just in case.. you may very well need it

[Shurv]

Look at it this way, If you buy a 996 at, say, £12k, and it lunches it's engine at a cost of, say, £7k, You'll have spent £19k on what is probably the best sports car you can buy, with a fully future proofed engine. The car can then be enjoyed for many more years with little of no risk. Another perspective, there are many thousands of drivers out there with (expensive German) turbo diesel cars, these are becoming recognised for having turbo failures, dual mass flywheel issues, and DPF failures as costs of up to £3k, £ 1,500, and £1,500 respectively. Not to mention fuel pump issues and high pressure injectors and intercooler failures. The way I look at it, 996 ownership is not much more risky that that, same type of potential costs. All told, it is a Porsche, don't expect to run it on a shoestring, but by Christ are they great cars to drive.

[shoestring7]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I believe a brand new 996 engine is still ~£12k from Porsche - and comes with a 24month warranty.

SS7

[shoestring7]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I believe a brand new 996 engine is still ~£12k from Porsche - and comes with a 24month warranty.

SS7

[Bebs]

shoestring7 said:

I believe a brand new 996 engine is still ~£12k from Porsche - and comes with the same old problems

SS7

Fixed that for you

[Automental]

I think this endless pessimism is spoiling 996 ownership and, no doubt, residuals.
These cars are getting quite old and have quite high mileages. We all know of air-cooled models, old Mercs and Japanese cars that have done a billion miles but a high performance engine such as the M96 may well be entitled to be near the end of it's life at 80-100k miles surely?
My indie has seen very few failures and believes the problems are over-exaggerated so I'm trying to keep positive but it isn't easy when perusing these threads.

[Flatinfourth]

shoestring7 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I believe a brand new 996 engine is still ~£12k from Porsche - and comes with a 24month warranty.

SS7

So I wonder whether these are the result of the components that are reworked by the nice chaps a few miles from here.

I do think some of the posters here perhaps need to drive a good air cooled 911,and make the comparison to perhaps see what they are missing.

I suppose the reason i make that point is that something an air cooled 911 shares with a TVR is a value that at least holds steady, so offsets the sometimes unpleasant running costs. The more common water cooled porsches appear to be depreciating to the point they are being broken for spares, which makes them comparitively a very unsound investment for such a degree of mechanical fragility, unless you buy cheap/drive/break for spares of course.

Edited by Flatinfourth on Friday 13th December 15:50

[shoestring7]

Flatinfourth said:

shoestring7 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I believe a brand new 996 engine is still ~£12k from Porsche - and comes with a 24month warranty.

SS7

So I wonder whether these are the result of the components that are reworked by the nice chaps a few miles from here.

I do think some of the posters here perhaps need to drive a good air cooled 911,and make the comparison to perhaps see what they are missing.

I do know there have been any number of iterations of rear main seal and intermediate shaft bearings, but I doubt if any are influenced by what independent engineers are doing, that doesn't seem to be Porsche's style. It did after all take them 30 years to get the 901 engine right.

Here's a picture of a 47,500mile old 964 engine. It's been properly maintained throughout its life, has been fed a diet of top quality oil, and for years has only been lightly used. The bores are like new, the studs show no signs of corrosion, the piston rings/valve guides/timing chain are all good enough to reuse, even the tinwork is good.

However, this big end bearing is damaged. Because the engine wasn't used after the problem became apparent it didn't break up entirely, but the damage is through the white metal to the brass and the crank is scored. It will need a complete re-build.



Sometime st just happens.

SS7

[IknowJoseph]

Flatinfourth said:

The more common water cooled porsches appear to be depreciating to the point they are being broken for spares, which makes them comparitively a very unsound investment for such a degree of mechanical fragility, unless you buy cheap/drive/break for spares of course.

What about in the long term? If all these 996s are being broken, what's the situation going to be in 10 years when all the available cars have been chavved up and all the rest sold in bits? At that point, won't a decent, original, example possibly going to be worth a fair bit?

[DanoS4]

Certainly hope so

Mine's come back from a bore-score repair @ Hartech. I did all I could to "protect" myself - checks/PPI etc. Just one of those things.

But now I intend to keep my C4 for a fair while (not just for the rebuild reasons).

Dan

[KeithRobinson]

There's thousands of people who own 996's and don't use internet forums. I guarantee they sleep better at night.

Moral of the story, look after your 996 engine with regular oil changes, let it warm up before thrashing, enjoy it and sleep well at night. If it's going to happen then you can worry about it then, but worrying beforehand achieves absolutely nowt.

Keith