996 engines; what are the odds?

996 engines; what are the odds?

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Discussion

ras62

1,086 posts

155 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Porsche Cars NA had to provide figures as disclosure in a class action law suit...

The M96.1 (early Boxster and 996.1 3.4 with dual-row bearing design): less than 1% lifetime failure rate
The M96.2 (later Boxster and 996.2 3.6 with single-row bearing design): 8% lifetime failure rate

http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/what-exactly-h...

Flatinfourth

591 posts

137 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
ras62 said:
Porsche Cars NA had to provide figures as disclosure in a class action law suit...

The M96.1 (early Boxster and 996.1 3.4 with dual-row bearing design): less than 1% lifetime failure rate
The M96.2 (later Boxster and 996.2 3.6 with single-row bearing design): 8% lifetime failure rate

http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/what-exactly-h...
@@@@,@@@@@@ @@@@, and statistics...

ras62

1,086 posts

155 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/boxster-and-...

6. Which Porsche vehicles are included?
The following Porsche Boxster and 911 vehicles that experienced or WILL experience IMS related engine damage are included:
• Model year 2001 - 2005 Porsche Boxster vehicles manufactured with an IMS between May 4, 2001 and February 21, 2005 with VINs in the following ranges:

Or open the court document on the following link. Page 13 of 39
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...

Edited by ras62 on Sunday 15th December 10:31

Pugley

687 posts

191 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
It seems only the American law system progresses Class actions this way.

It was exactly the same action that did for Land Rovers disastrous K Series engine. Just after that BMW bought remains the company and started fitting reliable engines.

So which engine do you think VW/Audi should put in the 911/Boxter? getmecoat

DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
The one they're using now tbh. From 997.2 onwards, it appears they've ironed the issues out.... And the 991 engine has developed from the last generation of 997 (from what I've read - happy to have this blown out of the internet water!)

Fwiw, my Hartech rebuild price STARTED at £6k, then you have the other work done on top.....ie IMS bearing, strengthened liners. I also had a clutch done too.... Makes sense whilst the engine's out tbh.

Dan

shoestring7

Original Poster:

6,138 posts

245 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
DanoS4 said:
The one they're using now tbh. From 997.2 onwards, it appears they've ironed the issues out.... And the 991 engine has developed from the last generation of 997 (from what I've read - happy to have this blown out of the internet water!)

Fwiw, my Hartech rebuild price STARTED at £6k, then you have the other work done on top.....ie IMS bearing, strengthened liners. I also had a clutch done too.... Makes sense whilst the engine's out tbh.

Dan
As I understand it, the engine used from the 987.2/997.2 on is the type 9A1 engine, which wasn't so much a development of the M96/7 as a complete redesign with a different block. So it doesn't have the troublesome crank cradle and IMS bearings which were causing so many problems, and is strong enough to use in the GT3 and turbo. Presumably the cooling system is better also. I have to admit, I've not heard any reports of serious trouble with these engines, or the DFI system that can cause coking in Audi's.

Sadly, almost all of the cars using this lump (bar the 2.9/2.7s) are in the top rate of VED, and I'll be cold and dead before I pay £500p.a. to keep a car on the road.

SS7

911wise

1,867 posts

208 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Pugley said:
It seems only the American law system progresses Class actions this way.

It was exactly the same action that did for Land Rovers disastrous K Series engine. Just after that BMW bought remains the company and started fitting reliable engines.

So which engine do you think VW/Audi should put in the 911/Boxter? getmecoat
Joking aside it won't be long until you see the 2.0 litre TFSi engine in the Porsche entry level line up.

shoestring7

Original Poster:

6,138 posts

245 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
911wise said:
Pugley said:
It seems only the American law system progresses Class actions this way.

It was exactly the same action that did for Land Rovers disastrous K Series engine. Just after that BMW bought remains the company and started fitting reliable engines.

So which engine do you think VW/Audi should put in the 911/Boxter? getmecoat
Joking aside it won't be long until you see the 2.0 litre TFSi engine in the Porsche entry level line up.
I can't see how a TFSi engine Porsche sportscar would fit with an Audi range that includes a TFSi engined sportscar.

My money is on a ~2l flat four.

SS7

GC8

19,910 posts

189 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I dont, having sold several for next to nothing!

911wise

1,867 posts

208 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
shoestring7 said:
I can't see how a TFSi engine Porsche sportscar would fit with an Audi range that includes a TFSi engined sportscar.

My money is on a ~2l flat four.

SS7
Why bother with R+D costs when you have a perfectly good tried and tested engine to hand. An engine that's also proved very flexible to different states of tune.

Its not been a problem for Porsche to use the same diesel engines that are widely available across the VW/Audi range.

Probably wont see it in current line up,but I wouldn't be too disappointed to see an entry level 250-280bhp 4cyl blown engine with a bit of Porsche character stamped on it (sound).

Edited by 911wise on Sunday 15th December 20:24


Edited by 911wise on Sunday 15th December 20:25

Flatinfourth

591 posts

137 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
911wise said:
shoestring7 said:
I can't see how a TFSi engine Porsche sportscar would fit with an Audi range that includes a TFSi engined sportscar.

My money is on a ~2l flat four.

SS7
Why bother with R+D costs when you have a perfectly good tried and tested engine to hand. An engine that's also proved very flexible to different states of tune.

Its not been a problem for Porsche to use the same diesel engines that our wideley available across the VW/Audi range.

Probably wont see it in current line up,but I wouldn't be to disappointed to see an entry level 250-280bhp 4cyl blown engine with a bit of Porsche character stamped on it (sound).
Indeed. Also, if VW can produce superb units like the five valve 1.8T and 2.0T, then reconfigure the VR engine into a power unit for a Bentley continental, even if it doesn't quite have the 'W' configuration they label it with, then surely it shouldn't be too much of a drama to create a flat four/six crankcase and head castings for a Porsche unit. Having said that, the VW waterboxer was another shocker.


GC8

19,910 posts

189 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Do people want to see Porsche become another string to VWs bow? I certainly dont. Ironinc that VW appears to be considering this, when the Porsche family own so much of VW and always have...

Shurv

955 posts

159 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
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Current VW engines aren't the paragon of reliability they'd like everyone to think. I certainly wouldn't buy a Porsche with a parts bin VW engine fitted.

csmith319

372 posts

162 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
I would be very surprised if Porsche didn't develop a flat 4 for use both in the Boxter / Cayman and 911. However, for the Macan and Cayenne - then it would make more sense to re-use VAG engines for platform compatibilty.

I'm sure there is an obvious reason - but when they downsize, why can't they use a small flat 6's or V8's? Are more cylinders actually that much more inefficient? Remembering the Ferrari 208 - 2 litre turbo V8 for the Italian market for tax reasons... I think a 2 litre turbo flat 6 would reduce backlash, keep more 'pretige' (whatever that means nowadays) and be easier to retain good acoustics.

911wise

1,867 posts

208 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Shurv said:
Current VW engines aren't the paragon of reliability they'd like everyone to think. I certainly wouldn't buy a Porsche with a parts bin VW engine fitted.
Maybe not, but the cost saving per unit would be too hard for the group to ignore. The thought of a VW engine might put off some, but many won't care or just don't know or both. Certainly hasn't done Bentley any harm or Porsche past and present.

GC8

19,910 posts

189 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
The 'V6' engine is little more than a breathed-on VR6 I suppose...

911wise

1,867 posts

208 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
It's not the end of the world Mclaren F1, Pagani Zonda,Aston Martin and almost all Lotuses have used engines from other companies.

GregorFuk

563 posts

199 months

Monday 16th December 2013
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Dan911 said:
I love the 996, find myself looking at the C4S as they are a great looking 911.

But, I would not buy one unless it had a Hartech rebuild, I can't see driving/enjoying a car while worried about the engine. My last Cayman all I did was worry about how much oil it used, checking the left exhaust for soot after every trip... I look after every Porsche I own with a 'what ever it needs' attitude, but could not enjoy the worrying about all the areas these engines have problems with. On my last euro blast we popped into a Porsche engine builder in Zurich to look at a GT1 he was looking after and got chatting about the 996/987 engines, I had to laugh when he said 'I have cheese stronger than them engines'!

Just my 2pence worth.. And what do I know.
The question needs to be asked. Did you have any issues with the engine in your Cayman?

DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Tuesday 17th December 2013
quotequote all
The one they're using now tbh. From 997.2 onwards, it appears they've ironed the issues out.... And the 991 engine has developed from the last generation of 997 (from what I've read - happy to have this blown out of the internet water!)

Fwiw, my Hartech rebuild price STARTED at £6k, then you have the other work done on top.....ie IMS bearing, strengthened liners. I also had a clutch done too.... Makes sense whilst the engine's out tbh.

Dan

Trev450

6,314 posts

171 months

Tuesday 17th December 2013
quotequote all
I thought I'd read the above post previously but then started questioning my sanity.silly

I was therefore relieved to find that it had been posted previously on Sunday. confused