Problem of premature failure of PCCB ceramic brakes

Problem of premature failure of PCCB ceramic brakes

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jimmy348

Original Poster:

10 posts

119 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
My PCCB ceramic brake rotors burned out prematurely at 12,000 miles. The repair cost me $10,000 because Porsche refused to honor their warranty. Has anyone else had to replace their PCCB rotors?

For those of you looking for more details, I have described my experience at length in a blog post at http://jimmy348.blogspot.com/.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
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PCCB are awesome imo.

But then I don't have PTV , and only ever drive PSM off and do ample cooling of them.

They do resist fade more than a steel, but you have to look after them in the same way.

People seem to hoon about on track days thinking they are Unbreakable.

I have seen people ask for warranty when they have melted pads and blacking plates, because the disks can take the heat again people misuse them and cook the pads etc.

Would I spec them again, yes def.

jimmy348

Original Poster:

10 posts

119 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
PCCB are awesome imo.

People seem to hoon about on track days thinking they are Unbreakable.

I have seen people ask for warranty when they have melted pads and blacking plates, because the disks can take the heat again people misuse them and cook the pads etc.
Here is what Porsche promised me in the sales literature: “The discs are made from a specially treated carbon-fiber compound that is silicated in a high-vacuum process at 3,092°F. The resulting material is not only much harder than metal- it is also more resistant to heat.” Yet my rotors ended up failing because of excessive heat caused by interventions from the car's computers. My blog explains all of this.

A $10,000 repair bill is not trivial for me. Therefore, I'm saying caveat emptor when it comes to PCCB.

Glenn McMenamin

2,305 posts

237 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
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This is a well trodden path. Porsche way over hyped PCCB on the 996 cars, saying they were designed for track use etc. they soon withdrew any such references when people started demolishing their discs on track and took legal action.

(cue Guy R)

In contrast, when used exclusively on the road, the discs will easily last 100k miles IMO. I sold my 996 turbo can which had PCCB with 45,000 miles on the clock. Not only did the discs look like new, it was still on the original pads too !!

I'm now on a 997 Turbo S. I can concur about the extra wear that the electronics put on the brakes, most specifically the rears. I actually changed the rear pads on mine last week as they seemed to be getting low at just 16,000 miles, I also find it good practice to change them early as they'll be kinder to the disc in terms of heat build up.
Quite a contrast from my previous 996 !!

Bottom line, brakes are consumables, I don't 'think' Porsche advertise the benefits of PCCB for track use any more, so personally, I think you're on a loser there I'm afraid.

I would suggest you get some steel discs fitted for now, which still be good on track, but a lot cheaper to replace going forward. Put the ceramics in a box, and put back on the car come trade in time.

G.

Edited by Glenn McMenamin on Saturday 12th April 15:38

jimmy348

Original Poster:

10 posts

119 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Glenn McMenamin said:
Bottom line, brakes are consumables, I don't 'think' Porsche advertise the benefits of PCCB for track use any more, so personally, I think you're on a loser there I'm afraid.

I would suggest you get some steel discs fitted for now, which still be good on track, but a lot cheaper to replace going forward. Put the ceramics in a box, and put back on the car come trade in time.

G.

Edited by Glenn McMenamin on Saturday 12th April 15:38
Correct. Porsche no longer promotes heat resistance and also warns about damage from track use. So the question is this: why pay for PCCB if you're just going to store them in a box till it's time to sell? They will depreciate along with the rest of the car, so all you're doing is increasing Porsche's already fat profit margins.

DiscoColin

3,328 posts

213 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
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Hi Jimmy.

It is sad to say that yours if a widely known story that has been recounted here and on other forums regularly since Porsche began offering PCCB around 10 years ago. Boxsters and Caymans (being lighter, less powerful and usually tracked less often) seem to have been immune so far, but on Turbos, GT2s and GT3s such issues aren't really even news frown

To Porsche this has hitherto always been a consumable situation and not a warranty one I am afraid. The normal advice for you as someone who tracks your car would be for you to have your expensive ceramic rotors removed (and boxed up for such time as you might ever want to move the car on) and replaced for aftermarket steel alternatives (there are a range of options from the likes of Performance Friction, Brembo, Alcon and a few others out there now). Even if you turn off the PSM and adjust your driving, your front rotors are unlikely to last as long as you might expect before they too need to be replaced - I once saw a GT2 with front PCCB rotors that were dead after only 4 track days.

PCCB is a decent option on a road car, but on a cost-benefit basis they represent poor value on a 911 that will be used extensively on track. The cost is high and the longevity just isn't there. And even though a number of people have a marked preference for the different pedal feel (and indeed steering feel from the lower rotating mass), there isn't really any performance benefit from them as you are actually tyre limited for stopping power anyway.

Glenn McMenamin

2,305 posts

237 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Don't agree Jimmy

I'm more than happy with PCCB on my Turbo S. they are awesome stoppers, and give out zero brake dust. I don't take the car on track, so for me they are perfect. They came standard with the car, but I'd have spec'd them regardless, I'll easily get my money's worth from the brakes, and they'll still be in good shape as and when I decide to move the car on, so no need to remove the discs.

With regards to track use, I've had 2 997 GT3 RS's. I spec'd both with PCCB knowing that the cars were going to be use pretty much exclusively on track. I was well aware that this would massively accelerate the wear on the discs, but I got a large amount of track miles out of the discs before I replaced them for steel discs, and would still do this again. Others may not feel this is the best option, and that's why the majority of owners that intend to track their cars go for the standard steel brakes.

Your problem is compounded by the fact that you're tacking a very powerful and heavy car, this will put massive strain and heat through the brakes, combined to the fact that as you say, the electronics are using the brakes to help stabilise the car.
Personally I wouldn't track a car like this much if at all..

G.


ChrisW.

6,208 posts

254 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Jimmy, the PCCB brakes do what it says on the tin.

Many companies limit warranties even on non consumbles' where track days are anything more than very occasional.

If you want undying robustness buy a race car --- and still pay for your consumables --- and breakages .

Why should Porsche fund more ?

Because you say so ?

I'm sorry if I appear blunt, but I'm weary of your motive ...




jimmy348

Original Poster:

10 posts

119 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
Jimmy, the PCCB brakes do what it says on the tin.

I'm sorry if I appear blunt, but I'm weary of your motive ...
I'm not sure what you think my motive is, but if your read my post my motive is clearly stated: "to make my experience public, so that others might learn from my misfortune. If my story helps even one of you avoid a painful and expensive experience with PCCB, I will consider the effort to write this post well worth it."

You are obviously not among those who will benefit from my warning, but others surely will be.

mm450exc

564 posts

177 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
They should not fail after 12k miles.

On the road they are ok. On the track just too expensive to run. Pads will last 2 track days and at £1100 for just pads and the hardware a bit too expensive.

Had PCCB on my old turbo and never again. No brakes when cold or wet, squeak not stop after a track day and just not worth the money.

spyderman8

1,748 posts

155 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
None of the Carrera Cup cars have ceramic brakes - including the 991 (which I raced against today). That tells me all I need to know about how "good" they are on track.

Chris.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
mm450exc said:
They should not fail after 12k miles.

On the road they are ok. On the track just too expensive to run. Pads will last 2 track days and at £1100 for just pads and the hardware a bit too expensive.

Had PCCB on my old turbo and never again. No brakes when cold or wet, squeak not stop after a track day and just not worth the money.
Look you have people with GT3 stating they are warping brakes (steels) after one track day even Alcon.

Of course PCCB can take more heat, but the pads cannot, hence people misuse them and then wonder why the pad have fallen off the backing plate.

I think porsche stated a steel can stop 3 times at a certain speed without fade, a PCCB system can stop 10 times at the same speed without fade.

To help your pads and the heat issue if you do plan to stay out 3 times longer, it common to replace the pads when 50% worn.

Mine bite miles harder then steels , they work from cold far better than steels , and again silent.

I think PCCB have come a long way from ones on 996 cars.

A steel setup cannot cope with heat either hence all the new 200mph super cars have switch to ceramic.

At the end of the day the op got 900 track miles out his ceramics that's quite a lot of track miles for a heavy very fast car.

Ask how long a normal disk lasts and how long a Alcon disk lasts. People buy Alcons at Hugh cost and only get 4x the life from them over oem disks which don't last long at all and def not 900 track miles in a 200mph car.

Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 12th April 20:49

mm450exc

564 posts

177 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Yup - I think I killed 2 sets of front discs in 2 month on my 997.2 GT3.

Back to OPC in 2 weeks to check set #2. The odd thing is that the vibration started way after the track days.

Will probably have to go with Performance Friction and see how that goes. Anybody know what the cup cars use?

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Cup disks, which are lighter but last even less time.

They do 1 race and throw them away And cup races are not many laps.

ClarkPB

818 posts

199 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
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I love my 996 PCCB's. Fast road ,no track use though smile

ChrisW.

6,208 posts

254 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
jimmy348 said:
I'm not sure what you think my motive is, but if your read my post my motive is clearly stated: "to make my experience public, so that others might learn from my misfortune. If my story helps even one of you avoid a painful and expensive experience with PCCB, I will consider the effort to write this post well worth it."

You are obviously not among those who will benefit from my warning, but others surely will be.
So what happened to the concept of fair wear and tear ?

On the face of it a popular argument, but ...

900 miles on track would be 5 very busy days, and the driver has the "freedom" to destroy the brakes ?

A 25 minute race would be around 45 miles ... so this could be a very full racing year ?

HokumPokum

2,049 posts

204 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
get ST (surface transform) ceramic discs as replacement. much cheaper and repairable than Porsche items.

back to which, PCCBs are not infallible, you need to use them correctly like you would steel discs. You probably would have destroyed your steel discs too. It is a consumable like the others have said.

I have 2 current P cars with PCCB and would definitely spec them again, especially for track use.

jimmy348

Original Poster:

10 posts

119 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
A 25 minute race would be around 45 miles ... so this could be a very full racing year ?
First, I wasn't racing. Second, I feel Porsche lied to me in the sales literature. If they had been honest (as they sort of are in the current brochures), I would say that I had received fair warning. But they weren't, and I didn't get to make an informed decision. Those who are following this thread will get a chance to evaluate all of the inputs and make the decision that's best for them. For me PCCB is a no go.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
Look use oem steels and pads and you would be lucky to do 4 laps with out fade.
Buy a CSL can you cannot do 1 lap without fade.

You have done 900 tracks miles in a 1500kg car which can do 150mph down the shortest of straights.

Your rant don't wash.
The last guy to rant did the same thing showing his melted pads.

PCCB are not magic , they can just do 3 x the stops without fade, you still have to look after them.

My next point is why did you not buy some 2 piece hi end steels as replacements and buy PCCB again ?

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
Look you have people with GT3 stating they are warping brakes (steels) after one track day even Alcon.

Of course PCCB can take more heat, but the pads cannot, hence people misuse them and then wonder why the pad have fallen off the backing plate.

I think porsche stated a steel can stop 3 times at a certain speed without fade, a PCCB system can stop 10 times at the same speed without fade.

To help your pads and the heat issue if you do plan to stay out 3 times longer, it common to replace the pads when 50% worn.

Mine bite miles harder then steels , they work from cold far better than steels , and again silent.

I think PCCB have come a long way from ones on 996 cars.

A steel setup cannot cope with heat either hence all the new 200mph super cars have switch to ceramic.

At the end of the day the op got 900 track miles out his ceramics that's quite a lot of track miles for a heavy very fast car.

Ask how long a normal disk lasts and how long a Alcon disk lasts. People buy Alcons at Hugh cost and only get 4x the life from them over oem disks which don't last long at all and def not 900 track miles in a 200mph car.

Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 12th April 20:49
It's difficult to know where to start in answering this post....

PCCB very well documented on this forum. The simple truth is no-one needs them. But if they make you feel good, knock yourself out.