Problem of premature failure of PCCB ceramic brakes

[fioran0]

mrdemon said:

Cup disks, which are lighter but last even less time.

They do 1 race and throw them away And cup races are not many laps.

you sure about that one? track and race dependent, some races are harder than others (as a race, so the brakes get hit harder as a result) but 3-4 weekends for fronts would be typical. rears last the season.

[s_mcneil]

2013 season onwards GT3 Cup (type 991) use PFC steel, they are partners and official supplier to Porsche Motorsport. PFC are very proud of that, no mention of ceramic.

http://www.pfcbrakes.com/forums-blogs/blog/2013/05...

[fioran0]

mrdemon said:

Look you have people with GT3 stating they are warping brakes (steels) after one track day even Alcon.

Of course PCCB can take more heat, but the pads cannot, hence people misuse them and then wonder why the pad have fallen off the backing plate.

I think porsche stated a steel can stop 3 times at a certain speed without fade, a PCCB system can stop 10 times at the same speed without fade.

To help your pads and the heat issue if you do plan to stay out 3 times longer, it common to replace the pads when 50% worn.

Mine bite miles harder then steels , they work from cold far better than steels , and again silent.

I think PCCB have come a long way from ones on 996 cars.

A steel setup cannot cope with heat either hence all the new 200mph super cars have switch to ceramic.

At the end of the day the op got 900 track miles out his ceramics that's quite a lot of track miles for a heavy very fast car.

Ask how long a normal disk lasts and how long a Alcon disk lasts. People buy Alcons at Hugh cost and only get 4x the life from them over oem disks which don't last long at all and def not 900 track miles in a 200mph car.

Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 12th April 20:49

PCCB rotors oxidise at 750 deg. At this temp the carbon in the rotor bonds with oxygen and literally floats away.
There are plenty of race pads available for metal rotors that can do 750 deg and above. Metal rotors with a proper pad can deal with temps in excess of that which PCCB can.

PCCB is limited to stock pad choice (or the new RSC1 which is apparently PCCB safe, btw its horrible). With metal rotors you have plenty of pad options. Many of these pads offer a much higher friction coefficient than the PCCB pad meaning that stopping power is far greater than on PCCB.
So with an appropriate pad change out, metal rotors can take higher heat and stop faster than PCCB.

Modulation and release is poor with PCCB. Response also changes continually with temp change leaving you completely unsure what response will ever be. Metal rotors and an appropriate pad will give better modulation and release and provide almost linear response.

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 12th April 23:53

[fioran0]

s_mcneil said:

2013 season onwards GT3 Cup (type 991) use PFC steel, they are partners and official supplier to Porsche Motorsport. PFC are very proud of that, no mention of ceramic.

http://www.pfcbrakes.com/forums-blogs/blog/2013/05...

I was told that the brake suppliers interested in being on the new cups had to do a repeat brake test for Porsche as one part of the selection process.
Test was 600 repeat brake sequences on a test rig. 160mph-60mph at 1.8G. Same pads for all 600 sequences. PFC managed it easily according to them.

[Harris_I]

fioran0 said:

PCCB rotors oxidise at 750 deg. At this temp the carbon in the rotor bonds with oxygen and literally floats away.
There are plenty of race pads available for metal rotors that can do 750 deg and above. Metal rotors with a proper pad can deal with temps in excess of that which PCCB can.

PCCB is limited to stock pad choice (or the new RSC1 which is apparently PCCB safe, btw its horrible). With metal rotors you have plenty of pad options. Many of these pads offer a much higher friction coefficient than the PCCB pad meaning that stopping power is far greater than on PCCB.
So with an appropriate pad change out, metal rotors can take higher heat and stop faster than PCCB.

Modulation and release is poor with PCCB. Response also changes continually with temp change leaving you completely unsure what response will ever be. Metal rotors and an appropriate pad will give better modulation and release and provide almost linear response.

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 12th April 23:53

I think you have not got the hang of this Pistonheads thing, Neil. Best not to focus on facts which are empirically provable. May I suggest you take your trousers off and sit in front of your PC shouting loudly at other internet users.

If people want to buy ceramic brakes, let them spend their several grand on the biggest con trick perpetuated by premium manufacturers since the optional £2000 satnav that is outperformed by a £100 hand held device.

[mrdemon]

Real "race pads" of which some talk about are about as much use as cheese for road use.

What do F1 use again for disks ?
Lmp1 ?

Infact most hi end formats now use ceramic/Carbon disks not steels.

We will have lovers and haters, and as we own road cars, all this talk of race set ups is a mute point imo.

Road use PCCB win hands down over steels and should last the life of the car.
I have the same 2 cars (ish)1 with steels one with PCCB, it's night and day performance.

To get the performance of my steel car to come close to my PCCB car it would cost more than the tick box option when specing PCCB from new.

That's even without factoring in having to keep buying steel disks. Or the weight advantage.

Those are the facts, and if any one wants to see 1st hand what each car can do pm me and I,ll take you out in both back to back.

Every super car now has ceramic disks as standard fitment, it's not a trend to look cool.

Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 13th April 00:38

[jimmy348]

fioran0 said:

PCCB rotors oxidise at 750 deg. At this temp the carbon in the rotor bonds with oxygen and literally floats away.
There are plenty of race pads available for metal rotors that can do 750 deg and above. Metal rotors with a proper pad can deal with temps in excess of that which PCCB can.

PCCB is limited to stock pad choice (or the new RSC1 which is apparently PCCB safe, btw its horrible). With metal rotors you have plenty of pad options. Many of these pads offer a much higher friction coefficient than the PCCB pad meaning that stopping power is far greater than on PCCB.
So with an appropriate pad change out, metal rotors can take higher heat and stop faster than PCCB.

Modulation and release is poor with PCCB. Response also changes continually with temp change leaving you completely unsure what response will ever be. Metal rotors and an appropriate pad will give better modulation and release and provide almost linear response.

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 12th April 23:53

Yours has been the most informative and helpful reply yet. I've saved it for future reference. Thanks for your input.

[jimmy348]

Harris_I said:

I think you have not got the hang of this Pistonheads thing, Neil. Best not to focus on facts which are empirically provable. May I suggest you take your trousers off and sit in front of your PC shouting loudly at other internet users.

Hilarious. Right on.

[jimmy348]

mrdemon said:

Real "race pads" of which some talk about are about as much use as cheese for road use.
Those are the facts, and if any one wants to see 1st hand what each car can do pm me and I,ll take you out in both back to back.

Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 13th April 00:38

I wish I could, but I'm in California. :-)

[fioran0]

mrdemon said:

Real "race pads" of which some talk about are about as much use as cheese for road use.

What do F1 use again for disks ?
Lmp1 ?

To get the performance of my steel car to come close to my PCCB car it would cost more than the tick box option when specing PCCB from new.

Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 13th April 00:38

F1 uses carbon carbon brake setups, as do LMP cars when on carbon brakes. Completely different from carbon ceramic. You knew that though surely.

The second part would literally require you to change you pads. That being said, performance can be many things. No doubt you had some esoteric metric in mind.

[mikem7709]

The way I see it, the only advantages are less weight and dust ??

Without sounding derogatory, I think most people would benefit more from driver coaching in the use of brakes.

[drmark]

fioran0 said:

F1 uses carbon carbon brake setups, as do LMP cars when on carbon brakes. Completely different from carbon ceramic. You knew that though surely.

PS Also Mr Demon cars have discs, computers use disks

Edited by drmark on Sunday 13th April 10:02

[RAWENG]

A friend took me as a passenger round SPA for 20mins last year in his GT3 4RS. When we returned to our hotel i was lusting over his car and inspecting it carefully in the car park, I noticed that all 4 ceramic discs had cracked radially from the drillings in the discs faces. The result all 4 discs were scrap. As a matter of interest I took my pads out of my turbo that also has PCCB and John Frith who runs a company called Performance Braking in Monmouth managed to cross reference the pads , the OE pads are in fact a Pagid RS14 compound. This is a well loved race compound used by Caterham racers on steel discs. BTW I love my PCCB but do not plan to track the car if ever with them fitted, the amount of unsprung weight saving over the steel rotors must be significant, anyone know what the figures are?

I have to agree with MRDEMON these are essentially road cars not race cars and at 1600kgs the brakes suffer when push hard on track. For this reason I have kept my Caterham for track use , its faster cheaper to run than any GT3 at most circuits with the exception of the Ring.

Edited by RAWENG on Sunday 13th April 11:19

[Dr S]

spyderman8 said:

None of the Carrera Cup cars have ceramic brakes - including the 991 (which I raced against today). That tells me all I need to know about how "good" they are on track.

Chris.

In many race series ceramics are not allowed - eg. VLN

[fioran0]

RAWENG said:

A friend took me as a passenger round SPA for 20mins last year in his GT3 4RS. When we returned to our hotel i was lusting over his car and inspecting it carefully in the car park, I noticed that all 4 ceramic discs had cracked radially from the drillings in the discs faces. The result all 4 discs were scrap. As a matter of interest I took my pads out of my turbo that also has PCCB and John Frith who runs a company called Performance Braking in Monmouth managed to cross reference the pads , the OE pads are in fact a Pagid RS14 compound. This is a well loved race compound used by Caterham racers on steel discs. BTW I love my PCCB but do not plan to track the car if ever with them fitted, the amount of unsprung weight saving over the steel rotors must be significant, anyone know what the figures are?

I have to agree with MRDEMON these are essentially road cars not race cars and at 1600kgs the brakes suffer when push hard on track. For this reason I have kept my Caterham for track use , its faster cheaper to run than any GT3 at most circuits with the exception of the Ring.

Edited by RAWENG on Sunday 13th April 11:19

The OE pads are absolutely not RS14. They were P90 and are now P40-3.
The very early Cups used a material called P40 so maybe this is where some confusion arises when people try to cross reference. (P40 isn't RS14 either but theres a long and dull reason why some people think it is).
Trying to run an RS14 pad on a PCCB will wear the disc out in short order. Its very abrasive. The wear on metal rotors is significant with these and the coating on a PCCB rotor is microns thick.
All that aside, a simple short drive on a P40-3 pad will let you know its nothing like RS14. There is literally no way the two could be confused.

[NIgt3]

There's some people who believe the hype of carbon ceramics and those are the customers who suit porsche "idiots"!! A good steel setup with good pads stops every bit as quick and lasts every bit as long as the PR departments carbon ceramics,

P.S just because all so called super cars use carbon ceramics does't mean their the best it means their the most profitable, but don't tell anyone because it will lose the big time car company's millions!!!

[ChrisW.]

But there are far more reasons to choose PCCB than wear characteristics and braking effectiveness. Both of which for road use and sensible track use are excellent.

They don't need to be repeated by me, the cost of PCCB's as an option from new is very modest (given the larger calipers) --- and there are modest cost options if they do need to be replaced.

At the very least, how many sets of steels would have been consumed in the time taken to destroy one set of PCCB's ?

I believe this was the OP's concern.

I assume that Jimmy was hoping that Porsche would just replace them .. but they don't replace any consumable items. And most of us understand why ...

I'm sure it must say somewhere that driving style will influence rates of wear ??

[NIgt3]

You can ruin a set of pccb's quicker than you can steels!!! People seem to think pccb's last 100,000miles they do if you drive around the congestion zone in London at 30mph, but if you track your car often they have no real benifit at all except their a few kilo's lighter per corner, but the rest of the downsides far out way that. Also people advice for pccb's brakes when tracking your car is "take the pccb's off and box them up, then when your selling your car put them back on", what is the point in that????\
}

[jimmy348]

ChrisW. said:

I assume that Jimmy was hoping that Porsche would just replace them .. but they don't replace any consumable items. And most of us understand why ...

I'm sure it must say somewhere that driving style will influence rates of wear ??

To paraphrase Goldfinger, once is an accident, twice is coincidence and third time is enemy action.

Chris, this is your third comment on my post. In each one, you take great pains to defend Porsche and also to attack me. Based on this, I must conclude that you are a paid shill in the employ of Porsche. Your assignment is to defend Porsche and its products by all means available and to try to discredit any critics.

Now that you have been unmasked, perhaps you’ll do us the kindness of packing up your keyboard and Internet connection and moving off to parts unknown.

[NIgt3]

Jimmy I don't this chris works for Porsche, he's just giving his opinion (all be it a wrong one)