**** GT3 Worldwide Action Group Letter to PAG & Dealers ***
Discussion
langdale said:
APOLO1 said:
ah.....you don't have a GT3, explains a lot
Apolo1 given the rave reviews you have given the 991 gt3 and Porsche over McLaren im surprised you're taking this stance.They offer you a temporary car, an additional years warranty and a new engine im not sure they need do anymore than that. Question is did Ferrari compensate owners financially?
I am not at all surprised at the reviews of the 991 GT3, over the McLaren. Whist the 650 is a very fast car, it is still very bland to drive in my view, and lacks emotion.
I have lost a little sleep over this 991GT3 debacle, but then I ask my self, if it were me what would I have done differently? The short answer is not a lot, if anything at all. The only point I would have done a little better is communication time frame wise, but as they say, all to easy after the event..
I know you think I am probably just another guy throwing stones at your misfortune Apolo far from it. I saw your car before you got it and its stunning and the only thing to me that is worse than not having one is having one and not being able to drive it.
You have had and have some brilliant cars and it sounds like you are not loyal to any particular brand (that is a compliment not a dig) I have read your posts at how brilliant the GT3 is and I am sure it is but I cant fathom out why obviously a very good and important client to Porsche like you clearly are dont just say right stuff it give me my money back. I mean you have a 918 on order too right? Losing repeat new car biz to Porsche I would of thought would spur them into action a lot quicker than a letter asking for money....
You have had and have some brilliant cars and it sounds like you are not loyal to any particular brand (that is a compliment not a dig) I have read your posts at how brilliant the GT3 is and I am sure it is but I cant fathom out why obviously a very good and important client to Porsche like you clearly are dont just say right stuff it give me my money back. I mean you have a 918 on order too right? Losing repeat new car biz to Porsche I would of thought would spur them into action a lot quicker than a letter asking for money....
APOLO1 said:
I am not at all surprised at the reviews of the 991 GT3, over the McLaren. Whist the 650 is a very fast car, it is still very bland to drive in my view, and lacks emotion.
I have lost a little sleep over this 991GT3 debacle, but then I ask my self, if it were me what would I have done differently? The short answer is not a lot, if anything at all. The only point I would have done a little better is communication time frame wise, but as they say, all to easy after the event..
How can you communicate definite timescales when you probably don't have them?
berty37 said:
I know you think I am probably just another guy throwing stones at your misfortune Apolo far from it. I saw your car before you got it and its stunning and the only thing to me that is worse than not having one is having one and not being able to drive it.
You have had and have some brilliant cars and it sounds like you are not loyal to any particular brand (that is a compliment not a dig) I have read your posts at how brilliant the GT3 is and I am sure it is but I cant fathom out why obviously a very good and important client to Porsche like you clearly are dont just say right stuff it give me my money back. I mean you have a 918 on order too right? Losing repeat new car biz to Porsche I would of thought would spur them into action a lot quicker than a letter asking for money....
You have had and have some brilliant cars and it sounds like you are not loyal to any particular brand (that is a compliment not a dig) I have read your posts at how brilliant the GT3 is and I am sure it is but I cant fathom out why obviously a very good and important client to Porsche like you clearly are dont just say right stuff it give me my money back. I mean you have a 918 on order too right? Losing repeat new car biz to Porsche I would of thought would spur them into action a lot quicker than a letter asking for money....
ah,there were what I hope dribble marks on the wing.....? what's worse is that I did 3 track days in my UK one and one day at Ascari in my LHD. It is not some fluke with the award that it has just won. It is the best car I have ever driven, Although I am yet to drive a full power 918.
You are right I am not loyal to any Brand, along with I am extremely fortunate, I aspire to Brands most that push the envelope from an engineering point.ie look at Lambo when they launched the LP700, way ahead of its time, and now the 991GT3, the rear wheel steer system has to be experienced to be believed....its from another place..
I could have had my money back on day one, but were does that get me, in view of the above. I hope to have my 918 next month. I would like to think that Porsche views all of its customers as important....
Edited by APOLO1 on Wednesday 23 April 17:31
HoHoHo said:
APOLO1 said:
I am not at all surprised at the reviews of the 991 GT3, over the McLaren. Whist the 650 is a very fast car, it is still very bland to drive in my view, and lacks emotion.
I have lost a little sleep over this 991GT3 debacle, but then I ask my self, if it were me what would I have done differently? The short answer is not a lot, if anything at all. The only point I would have done a little better is communication time frame wise, but as they say, all to easy after the event..
How can you communicate definite timescales when you probably don't have them?
I would like to offer some clarification on our efforts so far.
1. The reason people have turned to the group is because they're not getting any information of significance from Porsche's regional distributors. The group could not exist if Porsche's customers were satisfied with the way PAG is handling communication and information. Porsche couldn't even keep to its own communication timetable for an update and, when it did come, it was inadequate.
2. With members from all over the world who are supporting this initiative by sharing information and experiences, we have assembled a document archive of correspondence from different regions containing letters and emails.
3. It's clear from correspondence that Porsche AG is coordinating matters centrally albeit some variances according to region.
4. The Compensation Matrix is based on real offers of compensation that Porche's regional distributors have already made in their respective regions. It has been drafted following days of consultation with members who are genuine GT3 stakeholders in a private forum and reflects the feedback offered. Porsche has not only failed to consult with its customers but, having read feedback on forums across the world filled with complaints, has failed to take any action to address those complaints.
5. We accept that the car is priced differently according to region however, following consultation, we agreed to create a simplified matrix rather than an unnecessarily complicated one. Again, this is with the Group's agreement following lengthy discussion and consultation. Bear in mind that the car is cheaper in UAE than the US but the customers in UAE are being offered twice as much than their American counterparts. That said, the car is approaching $400k in China and some members there are not so much concerned about compensation but whether they will have to pay the full price for the car when it's eventually delivered or the recently reduced price by some $50k. This is yet another example of Porsche not communicating with its customers but dictating to them.
6. The numbers in the matrix are based on real numbers. In the US, customers who have paid $170k for the car are receiving the same $2k per month as customers who have a delayed order and placed a deposit of $5k. Taking the $2k as the base compensation for someone who has acted in reliance of receiving the car within a specific time period, we feel that is a generous offer, however that means the figure being offered to customers who have taken delivery are being under compensated. Customers who have paid and taken delivery of the car in Germany are being offered €175 Euros per day which is the figure we have taken for that category of customers worldwide because that is what Porsche is offering its home market. It was Porsche itself which set these parameters.
We are all Porsche enthusiasts and not looking for a confrontation but it's about time Porsche addressed everyone's complaints. We have undertaken exactly what Porsche should have done in the first place; we have consulted with and listened to affected GT3 customers and written to Porsche AG/VW AG accordingly following agreement with the 100+ strong Group regarding the correspondence and compensation. To the contrary, Porsche has chosen not to communicate with or consult its customers but has chosen to dictate to them.
The cost of the car has nothing to do with this matter. It's purely a consumer issue however some seem to take the view that customers' complaints would be more valid if the car was not as expensive. At the end of the day, we'd be over the moon to see the cars back on the road asap and we're all very sure that Porsche's engineering department is working on this around the clock. Porsche builds great cars but unfortunately its customer support does not measure up to that same standard.
1. The reason people have turned to the group is because they're not getting any information of significance from Porsche's regional distributors. The group could not exist if Porsche's customers were satisfied with the way PAG is handling communication and information. Porsche couldn't even keep to its own communication timetable for an update and, when it did come, it was inadequate.
2. With members from all over the world who are supporting this initiative by sharing information and experiences, we have assembled a document archive of correspondence from different regions containing letters and emails.
3. It's clear from correspondence that Porsche AG is coordinating matters centrally albeit some variances according to region.
4. The Compensation Matrix is based on real offers of compensation that Porche's regional distributors have already made in their respective regions. It has been drafted following days of consultation with members who are genuine GT3 stakeholders in a private forum and reflects the feedback offered. Porsche has not only failed to consult with its customers but, having read feedback on forums across the world filled with complaints, has failed to take any action to address those complaints.
5. We accept that the car is priced differently according to region however, following consultation, we agreed to create a simplified matrix rather than an unnecessarily complicated one. Again, this is with the Group's agreement following lengthy discussion and consultation. Bear in mind that the car is cheaper in UAE than the US but the customers in UAE are being offered twice as much than their American counterparts. That said, the car is approaching $400k in China and some members there are not so much concerned about compensation but whether they will have to pay the full price for the car when it's eventually delivered or the recently reduced price by some $50k. This is yet another example of Porsche not communicating with its customers but dictating to them.
6. The numbers in the matrix are based on real numbers. In the US, customers who have paid $170k for the car are receiving the same $2k per month as customers who have a delayed order and placed a deposit of $5k. Taking the $2k as the base compensation for someone who has acted in reliance of receiving the car within a specific time period, we feel that is a generous offer, however that means the figure being offered to customers who have taken delivery are being under compensated. Customers who have paid and taken delivery of the car in Germany are being offered €175 Euros per day which is the figure we have taken for that category of customers worldwide because that is what Porsche is offering its home market. It was Porsche itself which set these parameters.
We are all Porsche enthusiasts and not looking for a confrontation but it's about time Porsche addressed everyone's complaints. We have undertaken exactly what Porsche should have done in the first place; we have consulted with and listened to affected GT3 customers and written to Porsche AG/VW AG accordingly following agreement with the 100+ strong Group regarding the correspondence and compensation. To the contrary, Porsche has chosen not to communicate with or consult its customers but has chosen to dictate to them.
The cost of the car has nothing to do with this matter. It's purely a consumer issue however some seem to take the view that customers' complaints would be more valid if the car was not as expensive. At the end of the day, we'd be over the moon to see the cars back on the road asap and we're all very sure that Porsche's engineering department is working on this around the clock. Porsche builds great cars but unfortunately its customer support does not measure up to that same standard.
The bottom line is the only strength you have is to get a refund and they don't care about that because they have a queue of people lining up to buy the car 
After that last pitiful letter, I asked myself a question, what do I want to make me happy, and my answer was a good loaner until my car was delivered because after selling my 997 GT3 I was missing out on some great weather for driving, however that was the crunch point, there were s
t loads of other cars I would be more than happy to have in the garage the 991 GT3 was not the only option for me so what was I messing about at???
I got all my money back bought myself a cracking car within 48 hours that I am absolutely loving and I can now sit back and watch this mess unravel and if everything sorts itself out and the car doesn't continue to melt I can buy Richards in three years time for £75K
After that last pitiful letter, I asked myself a question, what do I want to make me happy, and my answer was a good loaner until my car was delivered because after selling my 997 GT3 I was missing out on some great weather for driving, however that was the crunch point, there were s
t loads of other cars I would be more than happy to have in the garage the 991 GT3 was not the only option for me so what was I messing about at???I got all my money back bought myself a cracking car within 48 hours that I am absolutely loving and I can now sit back and watch this mess unravel and if everything sorts itself out and the car doesn't continue to melt I can buy Richards in three years time for £75K
SonnyM said:
This in itself is a great achievement with some press covering the debacle... whilst PH and Autocar pretend it's ok to award prizes to a car that is currently not even roadworthyrosino said:
SonnyM said:
This in itself is a great achievement with some press covering the debacle... whilst PH and Autocar pretend it's ok to award prizes to a car that is currently not even roadworthyHOW FERRARI SPINS by Chris Harris
I told the blokes here at Jalopnik I was pissed at Ferrari and wanted to tell a few people. They said I could do it here. Stay with me, this might take a while.
I think it started in 2007 when I heard that Ferrari wanted to know which test track we were going to use for Autocar's 599 GTB road test, but in reality the rot had set in many years earlier. Why would it want to know that? "Because," said the man from the Autocar office, "The factory now has to send a test team to the circuit we chose so that they can optimize the car to get the best performance from it." They duly went to the track, tested for a day, crashed the car, went back to the factory to mend the car, returned, tested and then invited us to drive this "standard" 599. They must have been having a laugh.
continues http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins
Needless to say, he was banned by Ferrari and therein lies the problem. You've got to respect Chris for his integrity. I don't blame publications for publishing nothing rather than the truth in case the truth comes back to bite them.
langdale said:
berty37 said:
Just because some people are not owners does not mean they are not allowed to have an opinion or voice it - this is a public forum....Porsche have not banned you from driving the car so go back to your OPC get the keys and drive it til you get your actual time slot for the new engine. As someone else put it Porsche' biggest worry is if more and more photos and stories on the web circulate of other cars catching fire or failing causing them more embarrasment.
I have to agree with Demon on this - the letter is look we love you and the car give us some cash and we'll sit tight.If you want to make a stand say right the cars are all sitting at the dealers useless to us we have lost faith in you give us our money back..but you wont...why? because you know there are still people who want them dealers and individuals falling over themselves to get their hands on one. Am I totally in agreement with the way Porsche AG and there dealers have handled it?..no but they have supplied loan cars to people through the network so what expenses you on about?.depreciation?? haha the only cars you ever see for sale are trading at a premium.
Its a mess but sadly its a recall - I hope you all get what it is you are after but I think its likely to be another years warranty.
100% Spot OnI have to agree with Demon on this - the letter is look we love you and the car give us some cash and we'll sit tight.If you want to make a stand say right the cars are all sitting at the dealers useless to us we have lost faith in you give us our money back..but you wont...why? because you know there are still people who want them dealers and individuals falling over themselves to get their hands on one. Am I totally in agreement with the way Porsche AG and there dealers have handled it?..no but they have supplied loan cars to people through the network so what expenses you on about?.depreciation?? haha the only cars you ever see for sale are trading at a premium.
Its a mess but sadly its a recall - I hope you all get what it is you are after but I think its likely to be another years warranty.
Koozy said:
How is this spot on? If either of you owned a GT3 you'd know that all our various insurers have told us that our insurance is not currently valid so we cannot drive our cars even if we wanted to!!
Whatever the technical details bottom line is its a recall. I find this very difficult to believe. My 997 turbos insurance didnt become invalid when there was an early recall for the turbos to be lubricated and the engine tempreture sensor wire needed re routing. That could still have affected the car had they gone wrong.s2000db said:
Great letter, however and knowing the German mentality, I suspect they'll either ignore it or stall it, as to keep in line with their current communication policy...
You really need to get some more visible public PR, and hence try and get more owners on board as well as non-motoring related press. I.e. A Watchdog type program...
Good luck..
Love the idea of watchdog getting involved - anyone got a contact ? You really need to get some more visible public PR, and hence try and get more owners on board as well as non-motoring related press. I.e. A Watchdog type program...
Good luck..
AndyBrew said:
The bottom line is the only strength you have is to get a refund and they don't care about that because they have a queue of people lining up to buy the car
After that last pitiful letter, I asked myself a question, what do I want to make me happy, and my answer was a good loaner until my car was delivered because after selling my 997 GT3 I was missing out on some great weather for driving, however that was the crunch point, there were st loads of other cars I would be more than happy to have in the garage the 991 GT3 was not the only option for me so what was I messing about at???
I got all my money back bought myself a cracking car within 48 hours that I am absolutely loving and I can now sit back and watch this mess unravel and if everything sorts itself out and the car doesn't continue to melt I can buy Richards in three years time for £75K
Andy , I wouldn't make you pay that as I know it's not your preferred colour - you can have it for £k 74 - LoL After that last pitiful letter, I asked myself a question, what do I want to make me happy, and my answer was a good loaner until my car was delivered because after selling my 997 GT3 I was missing out on some great weather for driving, however that was the crunch point, there were s
t loads of other cars I would be more than happy to have in the garage the 991 GT3 was not the only option for me so what was I messing about at???I got all my money back bought myself a cracking car within 48 hours that I am absolutely loving and I can now sit back and watch this mess unravel and if everything sorts itself out and the car doesn't continue to melt I can buy Richards in three years time for £75K
berty37 said:
Whatever the technical details bottom line is its a recall. I find this very difficult to believe. My 997 turbos insurance didnt become invalid when there was an early recall for the turbos to be lubricated and the engine tempreture sensor wire needed re routing. That could still have affected the car had they gone wrong.
Either way , I can't drive as insurance would be invalid - if it wasn't , I would be ! RSVP911 said:
Love the idea of watchdog getting involved - anyone got a contact ?
I'd love to watch that episode where they wheeled out the "compensation matrix" and highlighted the claim for "distress" on the part of the £105k per pop Porsche customers. That would get a bucket load of sympathy from the typical watchdog audience. I get the lease costs, insurance, loan car part of compensation but "distress"? Really?Surely, by the "logic" of the compensation matrix, everyone should get £xx per day every time their car is off the road under warranty for any reason, not just those privileged enough to own a GT3.
Can't help it but, the use of the word "worldwide" in the name of the action group just reminds me of "Prestige Worldwide" in the movie Step Brothers for anyone that's seen it.
DT398 said:
I'd love to watch that episode where they wheeled out the "compensation matrix" and highlighted the claim for "distress" on the part of the £105k per pop Porsche customers. That would get a bucket load of sympathy from the typical watchdog audience. I get the lease costs, insurance, loan car part of compensation but "distress"? Really?
I am also a little concerned about involving the media at all levels. This could well backfire. I can see the headlines now...'Chinless Wonders worry about a delay in their Porsche delivery while Mother of 8 can't pay for Pot Noodle for Christmas'..
Fine lines here....
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