Anyone here owned a 997 C2/C2S and moved to 997 TT or GTR?

[Gibbo205]

Hi there

I've got a rather sorted 997 C2S, power wise 378BHP, as got most X51 kit on it, manifolds, radiators, throttlebody, filters, remap etc.
Suspension wise GT3 front arms, 20mm wider front track, 5mm spacers, GT3 anti-roll bars, -2 front camber, ceramic brakes along with Porsche aero kit.

So the car is very sorted handling wise for a Carrera, weighed in at 1420kg and has a nice extra dollop of power.
I was doing quite a few track days in it and the car was superb, but the expense in mainly tyres and brakes was huge to be frank and always the worry are damage on what is a completely pristine gorgeous example of a 997.1 C2S in speed yellow.

So I have now a dedicated track car which is now lapping quicker than my C2S was, E46 M3 SMG, 1300kg, 380BHP, Alcons, buckets and its extremely quick on track and the brakes far more powerful than even the ceramics on my 911.

So I have being contemplating maybe something a lot more powerful, hence a 997 Turbo, I'd be looking at 2006-2008 with Metzger engine and manual box.

But I am fully aware that the Turbo weighs in at 1600kg and might not quite have the handling balance and rawness of a C2S that has a lot of GT3 parts on it, the precision and soundtrack of my C2S, but it will of course be quicker in particular on the straight bits.

My concerns are, I love the 997 C2S rear engine handling characteristics, it feels beautiful and precise and as close as one will get to a GT3, but now I have an M3 track car I want a more suitable road car with big power and tuning ability. Question is does a Turbo still have the beautiful steering feel and does it still have the rear engine characteristics or are they a duller to drive compared to a C2S.

I've driven one 997 Turbo, but it was a tip and a friends, I found it not so great, power was nice though, but it was the TIP gearbox I just found carp.


So my question is has anyone here owned a 997 C2/C2S and moved to a Turbo or owned a C2S or Turbo and moved to an R35 GTR? If so I'd be really interested to hear from you how the C2S and 997 Turbo compared to drive? The other obvious car is a GTR, like the gearbox, launch control etc. but the car is huge and heavy, so not that enjoyable on narrow country roads, mainly due to size, but be good to hear from 997 owners who have moved to GTR on how they compare as well.

Edited by Gibbo205 on Wednesday 23 April 09:17

[TheDeadPrussian]

I owned an R35 GT-R having previously owned a 997 C2, C2S and a 997.1 GT3.

I really enjoyed the GT-R, it’s completely different in character to the 911, but it is not - as some might have you believe - lacking in character. The GT-R is a big car as you point out, and this does sometimes compromise its’ use – small back country lanes are sometimes a little challenging, but it is a usable and highly enjoyable car. And it is insanely fast.

The car was well built, I owned it for 12 months from new and never had an issue with it, and the dealer service was excellent. There is a thriving R35 GT-R community on line and endless tuning and upgrade options…

Ultimately I sold it for two reasons, firstly, I didn’t particularly like the ‘image’ the car has – some of the owners (only a vocal very few) are complete ‘fan boys’ and are just unwilling to accept that any car other than a GT-R is worthy of respect. And secondly, I really missed the GT3 and so really wanted another.

The GT-R cannot compete on things like steering feel and the interaction you enjoy with a great manual gearbox, but it has a lot to recommend it. The technology is great, Play Station graphics et al and it’s so fast!
Drive one – you’ll either ‘get it’ or you won’t, but if you do, it’s a car that has a lot to like about it.

[spareparts]

I made the change from a GTS4 to a 7.2TurboS. The TurboS feels much lighter on its feet, more agile, quicker steering, and not as leaden at the helm.

That being said, I think there is a fair bit of difference in the chassis between a 7.1 and 7.2 Turbo, especially with the change to adopt PTM in the newer generation. PTM offers a significant step change in feel and dynamics compared to the old 7.1 viscous 4WD system.

[Gibbo205]

spareparts said:

I made the change from a GTS4 to a 7.2TurboS. The TurboS feels much lighter on its feet, more agile, quicker steering, and not as leaden at the helm.

That being said, I think there is a fair bit of difference in the chassis between a 7.1 and 7.2 Turbo, especially with the change to adopt PTM in the newer generation. PTM offers a significant step change in feel and dynamics compared to the old 7.1 viscous 4WD system.

Ah did not realise the suspension had a major overhaul in the generation change, thought it was just engine and PCM3.

What is the PTM on the gen2 then?

[spareparts]

Gibbo205 said:

spareparts said:

I made the change from a GTS4 to a 7.2TurboS. The TurboS feels much lighter on its feet, more agile, quicker steering, and not as leaden at the helm.

That being said, I think there is a fair bit of difference in the chassis between a 7.1 and 7.2 Turbo, especially with the change to adopt PTM in the newer generation. PTM offers a significant step change in feel and dynamics compared to the old 7.1 viscous 4WD system.

Ah did not realise the suspension had a major overhaul in the generation change, thought it was just engine and PCM3.

What is the PTM on the gen2 then?

PTM is not the suspension. It's the entire drivetrain. 7.1 has a mechanical system. 7.2 has an electronic system with torque vectoring etc.

[Gibbo205]

spareparts said:

PTM is not the suspension. It's the entire drivetrain. 7.1 has a mechanical system. 7.2 has an electronic system with torque vectoring etc.

So is it vastly better? Normally a mechanically system can be more raw with more feel and more reliable, anyone got any feedback on this please?

[franki68]

I went from a c2s to a turbo,the c2s is the better car imo,more character,more fun,the turbo is a very very fast sterile experience in my book,and I found a few serious handling issues with it (the way it bunny jumped on cambers as an example).

[spareparts]

Gibbo205 said:

spareparts said:

PTM is not the suspension. It's the entire drivetrain. 7.1 has a mechanical system. 7.2 has an electronic system with torque vectoring etc.

So is it vastly better? Normally a mechanically system can be more raw with more feel and more reliable, anyone got any feedback on this please?

You can really feel the 4wd 'working' on the 7.1. ie, it always feels 4wd even though it still shuffles drive between the main axles.

In comparison, PTM makes the car feel 2wd most of the time, and its intervention per wheel is far more subtle and seamless. When you push really hard, the effect of someone 'helping' you is obvious as you just wonder "whoa, I should be in the hedge but I'm not".

PTM with PTV (torque vectoring) has the combined effect of making the 7.2 feel slightly more mid-engined, although it is still has a strong rear-engined bias. For further comparison, the 991 takes this to another level and does not feel very 911-like, at least not in comparison to the 997. PTV is what gives the 7.2 a big increase in agility, by introducing a form of rear wheel steer. This is why it feels like the rear of the car is less anchored down and slightly more mid-engined.

Given the mid-range torque outputs of the Turbo, it really needs a form of 4wd to harness the torque/power and make seriously rapid progress, safely. Without 4wd, I think the outputs of the GT3 (not Turbo) are close to as much as is manageable on the road without requiring race-car levels of car control. It's for this reason that point-to-point on the public road, the Turbo remains one of the fastest cars - certainly quicker than a GT3. Consider that most of the uber powered supercars nowadays all have 4wd.

[Gibbo205]

spareparts said:

You can really feel the 4wd 'working' on the 7.1. ie, it always feels 4wd even though it still shuffles drive between the main axles.

In comparison, PTM makes the car feel 2wd most of the time, and its intervention per wheel is far more subtle and seamless. When you push really hard, the effect of someone 'helping' you is obvious as you just wonder "whoa, I should be in the hedge but I'm not".

PTM with PTV (torque vectoring) has the combined effect of making the 7.2 feel slightly more mid-engined, although it is still has a strong rear-engined bias. For further comparison, the 991 takes this to another level and does not feel very 911-like, at least not in comparison to the 997. PTV is what gives the 7.2 a big increase in agility, by introducing a form of rear wheel steer. This is why it feels like the rear of the car is less anchored down and slightly more mid-engined.

Given the mid-range torque outputs of the Turbo, it really needs a form of 4wd to harness the torque/power and make seriously rapid progress, safely. Without 4wd, I think the outputs of the GT3 (not Turbo) are close to as much as is manageable on the road without requiring race-car levels of car control. It's for this reason that point-to-point on the public road, the Turbo remains one of the fastest cars - certainly quicker than a GT3. Consider that most of the uber powered supercars nowadays all have 4wd.

Good food for though, a decent 997.1 Turbo in manual, sub 50k miles can now be had for 40k and with 996 Turbo's firming up can't see the 997 getting much cheaper. Gen2 Turbo's seem to be around 50-55k so quite a bit more.

Here is a question, power aside is the 997.2 a more capable handling car or are the newer technologies just making it easier to go faster in the 997.2 and as such two skilled drivers would be hard to separate.

Just for me I'd prefer the version which well had more feel to it, felt more rear engineered and was more of a challenge, the fact you say you can feel the 997.1 system working more is kind of an attraction to me. I was in a 997.2 Turbo on a wet Oulton Park and its ability was mind boggling but the driver did not have to try, it all just seemed, well very easy and a bit boring. Is the 997.1 version just as quick but more challenging to get the best from?

[spareparts]

Gibbo205 said:

Here is a question, power aside is the 997.2 a more capable handling car or are the newer technologies just making it easier to go faster in the 997.2

Yes and yes

Gibbo205 said:

and as such two skilled drivers would be hard to separate.

No - the the 7.2 is faster and more capable, so 2 equally skilled drivers would go quicker in the 7.2.

Gibbo205 said:

Just for me I'd prefer the version which well had more feel to it, felt more rear engineered and was more of a challenge, the fact you say you can feel the 997.1 system working more is kind of an attraction to me. I was in a 997.2 Turbo on a wet Oulton Park and its ability was mind boggling but the driver did not have to try, it all just seemed, well very easy and a bit boring. Is the 997.1 version just as quick but more challenging to get the best from?

You suggest that more 'feel' is beneficial. Personally, I don't like the 7.1 or old viscous 4wd. It always feels like the power is being driven through a treacle drivetrain. It's sluggish and makes the car feel heavy. I would rather a 2wd 911 over a 4wd 7.1. A PTM+PTV 7.2, however, is a fantastic improvement: 2wd lightness/agility + 4wd grip/traction.

If you wanted big rear weighted thrills in a turbo, an old 930 Turbo should be what you're looking for. The 7.1 Turbo is a great car, but the 7.2 Turbo is simply better at everything the 7.1 tries to do - in a good way. And this is it: the Turbo is meant to be a fast ground covering cruise missile of a car, where onboost power is available on demand, comfort is paramount, and it will outlast its driver on any driving stint over any ground and mileage. If you wanted the pinnacle of steering and seat of the pants feedback, the Turbo is not the right car: any N/A 911 would be a better choice. (this topic has been beaten to death ad nauseum, so let's not start it here again)

The other aspect is that the 7.2 engine is a peach: it revs hard and fast. Harder and faster than the old Mezger lump. It is amazingly easy to slam into the rev limiter.

[Gibbo205]

What year did gen2's surface and were gen2 also PDK as well? Which I know is vastly superior to the tiptronic slush box of fail.

[spareparts]

Gibbo205 said:

What year did gen2's surface and were gen2 also PDK as well? Which I know is vastly superior to the tiptronic slush box of fail.

Yes, the 7.2 is PDK. Tiptronic was obsolete. From 2009 (MY2010) onwards I believe.

Keep in mind that the 7.2 is, for all intents and purposes, the 991 engine+drivetrain except for software/gearing changes to PDK, and the the 7.2 has a shorter chassis with narrower front track. It is as big a jump from the 7.1 to the 7.2 as it is from the 7.2 to the 991.

[Gibbo205]

spareparts said:

Yes, the 7.2 is PDK. Tiptronic was obsolete. From 2009 (MY2010) onwards I believe.

Keep in mind that the 7.2 is, for all intents and purposes, the 991 engine+drivetrain except for software/gearing changes to PDK, and the the 7.2 has a shorter chassis with narrower front track. It is as big a jump from the 7.1 to the 7.2 as it is from the 7.2 to the 991.

Cool, well easy to widen front track I suspect. PDK software is probably updatable or can be mapped to be more aggressive like the newer variations.

Something I will seriously consider, shall see what 2009/2010 gen2's are going for, might have to wait another year for them to get in my price range.

[mhh]

spareparts said:

It is as big a jump from the 7.1 to the 7.2 as it is from the 7.2 to the 991.

I had a 7.2 (Turbo S). It was nothing like the jump from the 7.1 that the 991 is from the 997. The former is an update, the latter is a model change.

On the OP's question - I found my manual C2S more involving than the Turbo S but not powerful enough. Once I tasted the Turbo's power (and PDK) I had to have it. Both great cars.

[ZeroH]

Just to be clear... 997.1turbo also uses PTM... only the gen1 997c4s used the VC of the 996 turbo... 997.2 simply had better calibrated PTM along with other chassi tech like torque vectoring and the dynamic engine mounts which contributes to it being a much sharper driving tool than the gen1 turbo.

[SteelySteve]

I had a 997 C2S, now have a 997,2 GT3RS, thankfully in between Ive had 2 x R35 GTR's - Try a GTR, you have to own one to understand what makes it so special, its a surreal experience, like it came from a different planet. And its nothing like a 997 TT, its better.

Edited by SteelySteve on Thursday 24th April 01:38

[SteelySteve]

I had a 997 C2S, now have a 997,2 GT3RS, thankfully in between Ive had 2 x R35 GTR's - Try a GTR, you have to own one to understand what makes it so special, its a surreal experience, like it came from a different planet. And its nothing like a 997 TT, its better.

Edited by SteelySteve on Thursday 24th April 01:43

[SteelySteve]

I had a 997 C2S, now have a 997,2 GT3RS, thankfully in between Ive had 2 x R35 GTR's - Try a GTR, you have to own one to understand what makes it so special, its a surreal experience, like it came from a different planet. And its nothing like a 997 TT, its better.

Edited by SteelySteve on Thursday 24th April 01:43

[blueSL]

The earliest 997.2 turbos came out in autumn 2009 so 5 years old this year. It may not have been a model change but it was a much more extensive revision than is normal for a mid-life makeover - new engine and transmission as well as the other changes already described.

I think its weight counts against it as a track car, instead the turbo is a peerless way of getting from A to B very quickly in all conditions. I drove 850 miles in a day from Austria to Calais last year in the wet for most of the way and it didn't miss a beat. Take in on the Nurburgring and the knackered tyres after an afternoon will tell you all you need to know about the car's weight.

[spareparts]

ZeroH said:

Just to be clear... 997.1turbo also uses PTM... only the gen1 997c4s used the VC of the 996 turbo... 997.2 simply had better calibrated PTM along with other chassi tech like torque vectoring and the dynamic engine mounts which contributes to it being a much sharper driving tool than the gen1 turbo.

Miras - thanks for the clarification. I had no idea the 7.1 Turbo used an early form of PTM. Unusual given that all other 7.1 C4s used the VC 4wd. Certainly compared to the 7.1 Turbo I have driven the 7.2 Turbo is a much sharper tool dynamically - no doubt the Torque Vectoring, Dynamic Engine Mounts, and revised PTM all contributing to this.