GT3 vs Caterham
Discussion
Have a 280 bhp cosworth bdg powered caterham 7 - which is very exciting to drive - but nothing like as secure feeling as a porsche with a cage on track - but much quicker until you are talking about seriously modified pork. a 7 is also MUCH cheaper to run on track as mentioned before in respect of consummables.
if you have got some decent money to spend - i know of a caterham levante with 600 bhp which has done about 400 miles from new with sadev sequential box /RS performance V6 with rotrex - build cost was about 120k - guy wants about 60k for it - probably not an ideal first 7! - but have been out in this car and it is much quicker than some good track bikes i have ridden - forget cars
best plan would be to hire one for a day and if you like it invest about £15-20k in a track prepped 7 where someone has done the money already - they are terrific fun to drive - and if you buy right you tend to get your money back - i have had a few
if you have got some decent money to spend - i know of a caterham levante with 600 bhp which has done about 400 miles from new with sadev sequential box /RS performance V6 with rotrex - build cost was about 120k - guy wants about 60k for it - probably not an ideal first 7! - but have been out in this car and it is much quicker than some good track bikes i have ridden - forget cars
best plan would be to hire one for a day and if you like it invest about £15-20k in a track prepped 7 where someone has done the money already - they are terrific fun to drive - and if you buy right you tend to get your money back - i have had a few
APOLO1 said:
if you took the time to put the "BENO" down, you would note above that said" built by"
the owners that I brought it from was a instructor at PEC....lots are not built at the factory......does not have that in the "BENO" does it....never mind.....Job club tomorrow eh.....
Do you mean Beano? the owners that I brought it from was a instructor at PEC....lots are not built at the factory......does not have that in the "BENO" does it....never mind.....Job club tomorrow eh.....
As for Job Club, no I'm happily employed already thanks. You say that to a lot of people on here yet I doubt the Porsche forum is a big dole-wallers hangout really.
Anyway, back to your willy waving, one-upmanship stories, Walter Mitty.
ETA- Evening Henry, yes I know bad habit of mine that
I'm still wishing I'd had a flutter on how long those 991GT3 engines would last with that 9k rpm rev limit though. I'd have been rich I tells ya! Rich! Edited by marky911 on Wednesday 28th May 18:31
There is more to do when having a 7 in the garage. Thats part of the ownership experience. My GT3 sat in the garage, needed nothing doing apart from tyres and pads and a good clean & polish. The Caterham has needed lots of little 5 minute jobs, from topping up the oil, tightening the exhaust, sorting the windscreen wipers, nipping up a few screws and bolts etc etc. Its strangely absorbing and as I stated earlier , not for everyone. Make no mistake though, driving the thing is a raw , visceral, noisy and above all fun experience. No electronics , no gimmicks , no servo assistance or nanny. Just your right foot , tyres next to your ears and gokart like handling regardless of what size engine you have.
I went from a 997 GT3 to a Caterham, and am now on my second, a few months later. They are fabulous fun and an event to drive - even a mile to the pub. There really is almost no real way to compare them with a GT3.
I don't even think of mine as a car, its something different. You can feel very exposed on the road, particularly on the motorway or in traffic, when even a van behind you can feel very intimidating indeed, let alone a truck
I made the move as I just wasn't getting the time to use the GT3 in a way that was at all satisfying. However even a 3 mile blast to take my boy to football training, or to pop down the pub feels like an event in the Caterham.
I also fancy doing a few track days and I probably would not have considered that in my pristine GT3.
They are easy to hire from Caterham for a day and its well worth doing before you commit.
I don't even think of mine as a car, its something different. You can feel very exposed on the road, particularly on the motorway or in traffic, when even a van behind you can feel very intimidating indeed, let alone a truck
I made the move as I just wasn't getting the time to use the GT3 in a way that was at all satisfying. However even a 3 mile blast to take my boy to football training, or to pop down the pub feels like an event in the Caterham.
I also fancy doing a few track days and I probably would not have considered that in my pristine GT3.
They are easy to hire from Caterham for a day and its well worth doing before you commit.
marky911 said:
APOLO1 said:
if you took the time to put the "BENO" down, you would note above that said" built by"
the owners that I brought it from was a instructor at PEC....lots are not built at the factory......does not have that in the "BENO" does it....never mind.....Job club tomorrow eh.....
Do you mean Beano? the owners that I brought it from was a instructor at PEC....lots are not built at the factory......does not have that in the "BENO" does it....never mind.....Job club tomorrow eh.....
As for Job Club, no I'm happily employed already thanks. You say that to a lot of people on here yet I doubt the Porsche forum is a big dole-wallers hangout really.
Anyway, back to your willy waving, one-upmanship stories, Walter Mitty.
ETA- Evening Henry, yes I know bad habit of mine that
I'm still wishing I'd had a flutter on how long those 991GT3 engines would last with that 9k rpm rev limit though. I'd have been rich I tells ya! Rich! Edited by marky911 on Wednesday 28th May 18:31
Everyone should do the caterham thing. Hugely exhilarating and i agree with all the other comments. The only thing i would add is they are bery easy to drive and flatter somewhat whereas a gt3 is much more technical and requires more skill and bespoke methodology.
I had the first ever duratec powered R500. A very special one off built by the legend who went on to create the csr and r500/620r engines (so much more special than Apolos). Tracked it for 3 years and it was sublime, had a regular Superlight R before that.
I had the first ever duratec powered R500. A very special one off built by the legend who went on to create the csr and r500/620r engines (so much more special than Apolos). Tracked it for 3 years and it was sublime, had a regular Superlight R before that.
jackal said:
Everyone should do the caterham thing. Hugely exhilarating and i agree with all the other comments. The only thing i would add is they are bery easy to drive and flatter somewhat whereas a gt3 is much more technical and requires more skill and bespoke methodology.
And that is the key point! Well said jackal, I was wondering when someone would point this out.I own both (6.GT3 with race mods and 140bhp K-Series with race mods). The GT3 is technically significantly more demanding as a race car. If you can drive a GT3 (very) fast then you can drive pretty much anything. The Caterham is more forgiving and the rewards are more immediate.
Otherwise I echo all the other points above (bar the point about Caterhams always being quicker than GT3s). Ludicrously cheap to run, very accessible, immediate adrenaline blast, crudely built but with a no-nonsense honesty, it's like a motorbike on 4 wheels. Strictly a toy. The pedals may feel a little awkward at first but within a few laps heel and toe will come naturally.
On the subject of Caterhams being quicker, a well prepped (read Cup-prepped) and properly driven GT3 can take on pretty much anything bar a Radical at track days. I can't speak for an R500 as I have never come across one but I have not found other Caterhams to be manifestly quicker than the Porsche. On the basis that the difference in lap times between a stock 6.GT3 and a 6.Cup car is order of magnitude 4-8 seconds on most circuits (don't quote me, that's a sort of unscientific stab based on the evolution of my own car), I would reckon the stock GT3 might only be marginally slower than most lower-powered Caterhams. There's a lot of assumptions in there, but it might give you an idea.
Thanks for all the great responses guys, has given me a great insight into what ownership might be like in comparison.
I will definitely hire/test drive one to experience firsthand.
One thing that was mentioned that appeals the most to me is running costs and simplicity. I feel at the moment I am constantly thinking about PCCB/tyre wear and mileage etc I also wouldn’t run the car without a warranty.
I think owning and running a Caterham would be a welcome relief from this and not living in this equilibrium of usage vs. cost and just being able to get out and drive the thing as much or as little as I want. Also being able to get the spanners out from time to time will be nice
I will definitely hire/test drive one to experience firsthand.
One thing that was mentioned that appeals the most to me is running costs and simplicity. I feel at the moment I am constantly thinking about PCCB/tyre wear and mileage etc I also wouldn’t run the car without a warranty.
I think owning and running a Caterham would be a welcome relief from this and not living in this equilibrium of usage vs. cost and just being able to get out and drive the thing as much or as little as I want. Also being able to get the spanners out from time to time will be nice
I've owned and run Atoms and Caterhams CSR260 and can confirm the Caterham is the easiest to drive quick. The Atom has a much narrower band near the limit and is trickier and although I've not taken my GT3 997.2 on track yet I think it will be easier to drive than the Atom 300.(mine Atoms were the Mk2 they are now on Mk3.5 and the geometry is much improved but I haven't driven one)
The big difference is cost of running. 6-8 trackdays in an Atom all on the same tyres and brakes.....
An Atom 300 at Donnington is about as quick maybe slightly more so than a 997.1 GT3 RS and on a par with a K series R500
The big difference is cost of running. 6-8 trackdays in an Atom all on the same tyres and brakes.....
An Atom 300 at Donnington is about as quick maybe slightly more so than a 997.1 GT3 RS and on a par with a K series R500
vallance5 said:
One thing that was mentioned that appeals the most to me is running costs and simplicity. I feel at the moment I am constantly thinking about PCCB/tyre wear and mileage etc I also wouldn’t run the car without a warranty.
This is exactly what played on my mind tracking my GT3 and having to replace all 4 tyres + renew warranty + re insure for the year and ontop of that sort a squeaky top mount and MOT.... jeez. Forget all the stuff about which is more difficult to drive. Arguably it is the GT3 but thats no use to you when you want to go and drive at 11/10ths on track and have a laugh. Do that in a GT3 and you risk financial ruin unless of course you are loaded or Walter Rohrl. As for speed round a lap. I dont really care as the Caterham provides the thrills from 1st gear whereas a GT3 needs to be going pretty fast to exact the same "on the edge" feeling. As well as hiring one out. Pop along to some of the trackdays local to you and chat up a passenger lap in a couple to get an idea also. I managed a couple of laps in an R500 with sequential gearbox and it was sublime on track, effortless speed. Not sure about how the gearbox would cope in traffic though but an eye opener all the same. Coming out of a GT3 you might find the power of an R300 a bit lacking in a straight line.
I own both a quick 250bhp track prepped Caterham and a 997 turbo. I have never had any problem beating slick shod GT3 rs's around any british circuit including Silverstone GP. Now if we go to the ring its a different ball game, the open sections of track the GT3's have the legs as the Caterham runs into its aerodynamic brick wall 140-150, even the megga powered 2.3L caterhams struggle past 150. Not tried the latest supercharged Caterham 620r but it looks from the vids that it struggles for grip everywhere so can't see it being much faster.
Tuned 944 Turbos are punching out 500 - 600 rwhp & 3 litre 16 valve versions exceed the upper figure with relative ease using modern technology hardware & advanced engine management.
Forget the dowdy mild 300 fwhp UK conversions of the past using increased boost K26-8s or K27-8s & K27-10s - that old tech has been dumped. Ditching the Motronic engine management is also a first step to freeing these motors from the constrainsts of 80's technology.
The world has moved on - standalone engine management, DBB Billet turbos, sequential injection, modern head work, lighter pistons & rods, new cam profiles, dry sumps, new design intake manifolds, bigger TBs etc.
Forget the dowdy mild 300 fwhp UK conversions of the past using increased boost K26-8s or K27-8s & K27-10s - that old tech has been dumped. Ditching the Motronic engine management is also a first step to freeing these motors from the constrainsts of 80's technology.
The world has moved on - standalone engine management, DBB Billet turbos, sequential injection, modern head work, lighter pistons & rods, new cam profiles, dry sumps, new design intake manifolds, bigger TBs etc.
Penguinracer said:
"a well prepped (read Cup-prepped) and properly driven GT3 can take on pretty much anything bar a Radical at track days."
Not entirely accurate...witness these times from the Porsche Club of NSW Supersprint:
I'm confused, penguinracer. I'm not following how those results back up your claim (were they competing against Caterhams and if so what were the times?)Not entirely accurate...witness these times from the Porsche Club of NSW Supersprint:
In any event, I don't speak for the really high-powered R500 type stuff. FWIW, I can speak anecdotally that Caterhams have tended to get in the way on public trackdays though I should emphasise that in peak trim my 996 was probably no more than 1-2 seconds a lap off the pace of a full-on Cup.
As for Porsche Club sprint events, we used to run these in Dubai and the spread of abilities was so wide as to negate any meaningful comparison between different cars.
Apologies if I have misunderstood.
Anyway ignore all my lap time fetishism, the Caterham is an altogether mental and life-affirming experience and the OP should JFDI! If he can keep both in the garage, all the better.
I was surprised reading this thread how many GT3 owners have ( or have had ) a Caterham .
I am one of those with both a 997.2 GT3 and a recently acquired 620R Caterham .The Caterham is my third , each one a little more powerful and track focussed .I don't think this one will be holding much up on a track day !
I agree with the comments above , my GT3 is actually my daily driver and after a trip in the Caterham feels soft and detached , thats not to say its a bad car per se just more of an all rounder . A track focussed Caterham is completely different , noisy ,tiring to drive long distances ,skittish in the wet ,fantastic fun and great on track .
What people forget , whilst they all look similar theres a huge difference between the top and bottom of the range , between S3 chassis , SVs and the CSR , between the tired track rental cars , Palmersport hacks and a well set up car with correct corner weights and geometry .
I am one of those with both a 997.2 GT3 and a recently acquired 620R Caterham .The Caterham is my third , each one a little more powerful and track focussed .I don't think this one will be holding much up on a track day !
I agree with the comments above , my GT3 is actually my daily driver and after a trip in the Caterham feels soft and detached , thats not to say its a bad car per se just more of an all rounder . A track focussed Caterham is completely different , noisy ,tiring to drive long distances ,skittish in the wet ,fantastic fun and great on track .
What people forget , whilst they all look similar theres a huge difference between the top and bottom of the range , between S3 chassis , SVs and the CSR , between the tired track rental cars , Palmersport hacks and a well set up car with correct corner weights and geometry .
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