GT3 vs Caterham
Discussion
Far Cough said:
keep it lit said:
OMG horrible brakes !!! Like the number 7 bus keep it lit said:
Ade very impressive! Goes to show how good a well setup GT3 is when an R500 can't loose it. 
You running slicks?
Gibbo205 said:
Ade very impressive! Goes to show how good a well setup GT3 is when an R500 can't loose it.
You running slicks?
Very nice vid but if Ade got into that R500 I would wager that he'd be 3 or 4 seconds faster that what we're seeing there.You running slicks?
To be fair to the Caterham fraternity, trackday pace for an R500 on road tyres is circa 1.17, so the 2up burgundy car there is some way inside its limits IMO with much more to come. R400 challenge cars would quality at 1.15 at Don national IIRC.
Edited by jackal on Tuesday 22 July 15:54
An R500 is quicker than a 997 GT3, be in doubt. It is surprising how much quicker an R500 is than an R300 or R400; know your enemy!
Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
hondansx said:
An R500 is quicker than a 997 GT3, be in doubt. It is surprising how much quicker an R500 is than an R300 or R400; know your enemy!
Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
Point is the R500 is only marginally quicker at best, cost as much as a 996 GT3 if not more and is terrible to drive on the road. Ade can pop to the shops any time in his GT3 or drive it to Spa.Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
The caterham is only 10% more capable at most on track in my view than the GT3, but on the road the GT3 is 90% better. I'd take the car which gives me the best all round package and the GT3 offers track performance as shown here rivalling and beating caterhams, that is also a joy to drive on the road.
Great driving Ade!
Interesting thread.
You buy a gt3 to drive to the track and then have a compete hoot and drive back home. The whole day and trip is part of the experience. The buzz you get from driving a proper road going track car to its limits, as nature intended, and then driving it back on some of your favourite roads, is second to none.
A proper trackday car with cut slicks etc has to be trailered to the track. I did try driving mine to and from tracks but that lasted about a year - 2hrs x 2 in the cold is not pleasant - the other 10 years I've used a trailer and a diesel plodder.
The main reason I went from a road going car to a 660bhp/tonne track car was basically the experience is rawer, faster and much cheaper if you are doing 10-12 trackdays per year and spending 4-6 hours on track between two of you. The trailer is still s
te, but least on the couple of occasions it's *cought* broken, it's not a problem.
If you are scratching the itch, IMHO you need to keep the gt3 and buy a powerful caterham ( but not one with a bike engine - you will be rebuilding every 30 hours) and used BOTH
You buy a gt3 to drive to the track and then have a compete hoot and drive back home. The whole day and trip is part of the experience. The buzz you get from driving a proper road going track car to its limits, as nature intended, and then driving it back on some of your favourite roads, is second to none.
A proper trackday car with cut slicks etc has to be trailered to the track. I did try driving mine to and from tracks but that lasted about a year - 2hrs x 2 in the cold is not pleasant - the other 10 years I've used a trailer and a diesel plodder.
The main reason I went from a road going car to a 660bhp/tonne track car was basically the experience is rawer, faster and much cheaper if you are doing 10-12 trackdays per year and spending 4-6 hours on track between two of you. The trailer is still s
te, but least on the couple of occasions it's *cought* broken, it's not a problem.If you are scratching the itch, IMHO you need to keep the gt3 and buy a powerful caterham ( but not one with a bike engine - you will be rebuilding every 30 hours) and used BOTH
mrdemon said:
Cars should be road legal on track days and slicks banned imo.
That is all :-)
Not sure if Ades is any more.That is all :-)
But slicks no way, a set of Michelin cups cost £800-£1000 a set and are pretty shocking on the road unless its a hot summers day and they have plenty of heat in them, should it rain cups again are average.
I can get a set used slicks for a little over £100, they will last me 3-4 track days, giving me superior grip to even cups, but they are not magical, worth about 2-4s around Donnington I'd say over cups and a good 5s over regular road tyres.
So set of dirty old used wheels with used slicks for dry days. Nice wheels outfitted with Supersports and are used for road and wet track days.
The biggest cheat of all is using wets in the wet on track, the difference in grip they offer over any road tyre is unbelievable, a good 10s advantage would not be surprising.
I am doing 1:21 area now in my M3 on cups, the slicks put me in high teens and I save money by using slicks but surpringsly the car is far more progressive and fun to drive on slicks, ONCED WARMED UP.
Gibbo205 said:
hondansx said:
An R500 is quicker than a 997 GT3, be in doubt. It is surprising how much quicker an R500 is than an R300 or R400; know your enemy!
Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
Point is the R500 is only marginally quicker at best, cost as much as a 996 GT3 if not more and is terrible to drive on the road. Ade can pop to the shops any time in his GT3 or drive it to Spa.Take a 997 GT4 car. This is a GT3 road car with a few Cup car bits and slicks. Last week they were doing 2'37s at Spa - a R500 will do that on road tyres. Considering that is a 'power circuit', i'd expect the R500 to have no issues around your average UK circuit.
The caterham is only 10% more capable at most on track in my view than the GT3, but on the road the GT3 is 90% better. I'd take the car which gives me the best all round package and the GT3 offers track performance as shown here rivalling and beating caterhams, that is also a joy to drive on the road.
Great driving Ade!
Both cars are seminal icons and both took the world by storm when they were created and still today are just as significant and relevant. You get a completely different experience in either and both experiences are up there with the very best that motoring has to offer.
Applaud both and try to own both in your lifetime too.
Gibbo205 said:
Point is the R500 is only marginally quicker at best, cost as much as a 996 GT3 if not more and is terrible to drive on the road. Ade can pop to the shops any time in his GT3 or drive it to Spa.
The caterham is only 10% more capable at most on track in my view than the GT3, but on the road the GT3 is 90% better. I'd take the car which gives me the best all round package and the GT3 offers track performance as shown here rivalling and beating caterhams, that is also a joy to drive on the road.
Great driving Ade!
Problem is after several trackdays in the GT3 you will need new tyres, probably new brakes or certainly pads if on pccb, get fed up with all the stone chips , get annoyed at "all" the mileage that the car is gaining and all the while panicking about throwing that much cash round the track which means insurance is a must.The caterham is only 10% more capable at most on track in my view than the GT3, but on the road the GT3 is 90% better. I'd take the car which gives me the best all round package and the GT3 offers track performance as shown here rivalling and beating caterhams, that is also a joy to drive on the road.
Great driving Ade!
I don't think you'll find any Caterham owner having those issues..... Crikey even if they are that fierce on the brakes another full set of pads is only £100 for the plucky Brit !!!!
Gibbo205 said:
Point is the R500 is only marginally quicker at best,
Than a standard 996 GT3 - marginal would be quite a lot in my experience.Gibbo205 said:
cost as much as a 996 GT3 if not more
Where are you buying R500s for GT3 money (or alternatively where can I pick up a GT3 for well under 30k?)Gibbo205 said:
and is terrible to drive on the road.
A voice of no experience whatsoever talking there. By virtue of the light weight it is quite softly sprung and has far superior road manners to my Mk1 GT3.Gibbo205 said:
GT3 offers track performance as shown here rivalling and beating caterhams
Ade's car is waaaay from a standard GT3 and he is more than handy behind the wheel, your average GT3 and driver wouldn't come anywhere close. While not making excuses, on the caterham side it has a passenger on-board, this will bring an R500 down to sub-R400 level of performance.The GT3 is a brilliant, exquisite beast which is a joy to drive to the limit on track, and is just a different way of being on track. I gave up tracking the GT3 after one year of tyres, clutches, brakes and other nonsense cost me over £15K in running costs alone, so I went to Caterham (and 7-style) cars for track days and never looked back.
The Caterham has big drawbacks - some level of practicality and creature comforts (a roof, wipers, heater, air con etc) are very nice to have on track days. There is also the not having a nice car in the garage factor - Caterhams do nothing for me, if it weren't for the track performance I wouldn't own one, I have no real love for the look or the marque....if I could track a Porsche and get the same performance/cost ratio I'd be there in a second.
Safety is a big consideration as someone raised - my biggest concern when tracking the Porsche was the financial impact of crashing, these days it is the physical impact. I'm told they are quite strong (especially with a cage) but I don't fancy testing that theory so don't push too hard.
OP - if you want a hurl in an R500 you're welcome to my passenger seat next time I'm at Knockhill (or if you're anywhere near Lanarkshire you can experience the "terrible" ride on the road for yourself).
GreigM said:
Ade's car is waaaay from a standard GT3 and he is more than handy behind the wheel, your average GT3 and driver wouldn't come anywhere close. While not making excuses, on the caterham side it has a passenger on-board, this will bring an R500 down to sub-R400 level of performance.
As stated, an R500 is way way faster than 1.21 seen in the vid. An R300 would go quicker than that even. No disrespect to anyone but the caterham in the video is on a sunday stroll with tons left in it. Even an old codger like me used to manage 1.17/1.18 without much strain and being a total pussy through craners to boot .... the performance of those things is so instantly accessible.IMO, comparing standard OE factory cars, you would need a 4.0 RS or 991 GT3 to match a committed R500 (and with a much better driver that the one in the caterham !).
"Marginally quicker" is a complete distortion. 2,3,4 seconds around a circuit is a lifetime.
I've owned and tracked every iteration of the GT3 and I've raced a Caterham R300. GT3s feel like a lard bucket of turd on a track compared to a completely compromised car like the Caterham. GT3 is a road car which is okay on the track, a decently setup caterham is a track car which is st on the road. And it isn't about how fast they are round a circuit, Caterham's are just much more alive and fun than a GT3. I used to race bikes and the sensation of pushing my R300 to the limit is as close as it comes to the experience of a bike in a car. But I would always want to drive home in a GT3.
t on the road. And it isn't about how fast they are round a circuit, Caterham's are just much more alive and fun than a GT3. I used to race bikes and the sensation of pushing my R300 to the limit is as close as it comes to the experience of a bike in a car. But I would always want to drive home in a GT3.As per OP also owned a 997.1 GT3 CS with ceramics. Incredible car.
Also have owned Atom, 2 caterhams and a Lotus 2-11. Of the lot I enjoyed the Caterham R300 the most. Just so chuck able and easy to slide about and you still get a grin at legal speeds on a twisty country road.
Will definitely get another one over the winter.....probably a R400 or try out a CSR.
Dave
Also have owned Atom, 2 caterhams and a Lotus 2-11. Of the lot I enjoyed the Caterham R300 the most. Just so chuck able and easy to slide about and you still get a grin at legal speeds on a twisty country road.
Will definitely get another one over the winter.....probably a R400 or try out a CSR.
Dave
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