Discussion
iantr said:
This is hilarious. Can I join in?
Porsche says: http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/2012-911-carre...
"Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) is a seven-speed transmission with an automatic and a manual selection mode.
In automatic selection mode (selector-lever position D), gear changing is automatic.
You can change temporarily from automatic to manual mode using the shift buttons on the steering wheel.
In manual selection mode (selector-lever position M), you change gear using the shift buttons or shift paddles on the steering wheel or with the PDK selector lever.
You can change between selector-lever positions D and M as you wish while driving."
So it is a transmission with automatic and manual selection modes.
Now on to language. It is helpful and therefore conventional to describe a a subject in a manner that establishes its key characteristics.
- An open-top car is usually described as such even if the roof is on
- A four-seater car is usually described as such even if all four seats are not being used
To argue that PDK shouldn't be described as an automatic because you can choose not to use the D-position seems obtuse.
Neither "manual" nor "automatic" are good descriptions of PDK, but "automatic" is the better of the two for the reasons outlined above.
Who is claiming the issue highlighted in bold, above?Porsche says: http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/2012-911-carre...
"Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) is a seven-speed transmission with an automatic and a manual selection mode.
In automatic selection mode (selector-lever position D), gear changing is automatic.
You can change temporarily from automatic to manual mode using the shift buttons on the steering wheel.
In manual selection mode (selector-lever position M), you change gear using the shift buttons or shift paddles on the steering wheel or with the PDK selector lever.
You can change between selector-lever positions D and M as you wish while driving."
So it is a transmission with automatic and manual selection modes.
Now on to language. It is helpful and therefore conventional to describe a a subject in a manner that establishes its key characteristics.
- An open-top car is usually described as such even if the roof is on
- A four-seater car is usually described as such even if all four seats are not being used
To argue that PDK shouldn't be described as an automatic because you can choose not to use the D-position seems obtuse.
Neither "manual" nor "automatic" are good descriptions of PDK, but "automatic" is the better of the two for the reasons outlined above.
mollytherocker said:
I can assure you that I fully understand how it 'works'. Its an automatic gearbox. You cannot manually change gear. You can press a button that directs the gearbox to change gear for you.
You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
And yet you previously claimed that the gearbox could choose to override your decision if it felt like it....You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
Interesting debate about what defines an 'auto' gearbox.
One man's auto is 'look! no third pedal and no longish throw lever'
Another man's auto is the "D" setting on an automated gearbox...(any other setting is a manual)
I think it is probably safer to define old school manual as a car with a third pedal and a throw action (H pattern and/or possibly sequential) lever. I assume the law also requires a 'manual' license to operate such a car.
I totally get that a modern automated gearbox controlled by the operator via up/down levers also provides the latest and greatest mechanism for controlled fast driving. It may be where the future is going.
However, just like classic cars have their appeal even though they can be slow and inefficient, thereby manual (as defined above) also has its appeal...but is not necessarily a better way to drive.
Finally, I also think Porsche went automated because of the need to keep up with competitive performance, and to a small extent the crazy palaver that surrounds over revs. It has become an irritant for them as well for their road going cars. They created a problem that did not really exist. GT engines are not blowing up because of this...but they did not know how to back out of it.
One man's auto is 'look! no third pedal and no longish throw lever'
Another man's auto is the "D" setting on an automated gearbox...(any other setting is a manual)
I think it is probably safer to define old school manual as a car with a third pedal and a throw action (H pattern and/or possibly sequential) lever. I assume the law also requires a 'manual' license to operate such a car.
I totally get that a modern automated gearbox controlled by the operator via up/down levers also provides the latest and greatest mechanism for controlled fast driving. It may be where the future is going.
However, just like classic cars have their appeal even though they can be slow and inefficient, thereby manual (as defined above) also has its appeal...but is not necessarily a better way to drive.
Finally, I also think Porsche went automated because of the need to keep up with competitive performance, and to a small extent the crazy palaver that surrounds over revs. It has become an irritant for them as well for their road going cars. They created a problem that did not really exist. GT engines are not blowing up because of this...but they did not know how to back out of it.
sidicks said:
mollytherocker said:
I can assure you that I fully understand how it 'works'. Its an automatic gearbox. You cannot manually change gear. You can press a button that directs the gearbox to change gear for you.
You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
And yet you previously claimed that the gearbox could choose to override your decision if it felt like it....You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
The obvious one is when you select a gear that would over rev the engine. It will override your request. And so it should.
I am not sure what it is you are getting at. As I said last night, we are talking about different things.
mollytherocker said:
sidicks said:
mollytherocker said:
I can assure you that I fully understand how it 'works'. Its an automatic gearbox. You cannot manually change gear. You can press a button that directs the gearbox to change gear for you.
You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
And yet you previously claimed that the gearbox could choose to override your decision if it felt like it....You can indeed choose what gear to be in most of the time, but you cannot change it manually.
The obvious one is when you select a gear that would over rev the engine. It will override your request. And so it should.
I am not sure what it is you are getting at. As I said last night, we are talking about different things.
The problem with this thread (and PH in general) is that objective discussion seems to last 5-6 posts before it degenerates into more confrontational debate. In the early part of this thread it seemed that was intentional...towards the end just misunderstanding.
The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
Edited by LaSource on Sunday 8th June 11:42
sidicks said:
I thought you had a 991 GT3?
The PDK-S does not override the driver in the same way that PDK does.
No i don't. Backed out of getting one last year as i already have a rather highly computerised car and decided to get something a bit older. Still quite keen to try one at some point though.The PDK-S does not override the driver in the same way that PDK does.
Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
isaldiri said:
No i don't. Backed out of getting one last year as i already have a rather highly computerised car and decided to get something a bit older. Still quite keen to try one at some point though.
Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk when both are in manual mode other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk when both are in manual mode other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
isaldiri said:
No i don't. Backed out of getting one last year as i already have a rather highly computerised car and decided to get something a bit older. Still quite keen to try one at some point though.
Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
On track in 991 tts the PDK will change up and own in auto mode in accordance with how the car is driven. On track in the PDK-S in the GT3, the PDK will learn the driving style within a few laps, in addition it will also and will learn the optimum change points, it will also match the required torque /rev range, through constant adjustment of the mapping.Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
The short track at the PEC centre is a good place to experience this.
A PDK owner will fight to the death, let them get on with it while the rest of us can enjoy driving what we like for fun.
Yes PDK is faster who cares, a 12c is faster than just about any thing and can be had for 130k now why don't we all buy one and stop buying Porsches altogether.
No new porsche gets my attention as PDK and electric steering really do detract me interacting with my car and if I want that there are better and faster cars than Porsche to do that in.
Yes PDK is faster who cares, a 12c is faster than just about any thing and can be had for 130k now why don't we all buy one and stop buying Porsches altogether.
No new porsche gets my attention as PDK and electric steering really do detract me interacting with my car and if I want that there are better and faster cars than Porsche to do that in.
LaSource said:
The problem with this thread (and PH in general) is that objective discussion seems to last 5-6 posts before it degenerates into more confrontational debate. In the early part of this thread it seemed that was intentional...towards the end just misunderstanding.
The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
To be fair, my comment was with reference to the handling out of the box. I can well understand and fully agree with Mr Rance, that some OPCs just do not know how to set a car up. My GT3 was no better in the handling department than my 6RS, when I first drove it. In fact it was worse. Unless the GEO is 100% on in a rear wheel steer car, all four wheels will not being going the same direction, ie the back of the car wants to go left or right, when driven in a straight line,going round bend even at low speed the back end just snaps out. The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
Edited by LaSource on Sunday 8th June 11:42
Once the 991GT3 is set up correctly, the only way to do this is through a manual input, the car is the best handling car I have ever driven, and by a big margin..
mrdemon said:
A PDK owner will fight to the death, let them get on with it while the rest of us can enjoy driving what we like for fun.
Yes PDK is faster who cares, a 12c is faster than just about any thing and can be had for 130k now why don't we all buy one and stop buying Porsches altogether.
No new porsche gets my attention as PDK and electric steering really do detract me interacting with my car and if I want that there are better and faster cars than Porsche to do that in.
the 12C is faster on track than 650S, also in straight line. Yes PDK is faster who cares, a 12c is faster than just about any thing and can be had for 130k now why don't we all buy one and stop buying Porsches altogether.
No new porsche gets my attention as PDK and electric steering really do detract me interacting with my car and if I want that there are better and faster cars than Porsche to do that in.
isaldiri said:
No i don't. Backed out of getting one last year as i already have a rather highly computerised car and decided to get something a bit older. Still quite keen to try one at some point though.
Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
no, or course I'm not disputing that.Well apart from kickdown, how else is the pdk-s different from a standard pdk other than increased speed and refinement? Or indeed any other dual clutch box that software does not have a kickdown function when one floors the throttle. Say you are cruising in 6th gear at 75mph and brake hard down to 15mph, even in manual mode i am certain the pdk-s will start downshifting for you rather than allow the engine to stall whether or not you are downshifting yourself. I am not sure what your argument here is though. The pdk -s is an auto with a manual mode - are you disputing that...?
I'm correcting those who don't appear to understand the difference between PDK and PDK-S, where there is a material difference between the two and the extent to which the computer will override the driver's inputs.
APOLO1 said:
LaSource said:
The problem with this thread (and PH in general) is that objective discussion seems to last 5-6 posts before it degenerates into more confrontational debate. In the early part of this thread it seemed that was intentional...towards the end just misunderstanding.
The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
To be fair, my comment was with reference to the handling out of the box. I can well understand and fully agree with Mr Rance, that some OPCs just do not know how to set a car up. My GT3 was no better in the handling department than my 6RS, when I first drove it. In fact it was worse. Unless the GEO is 100% on in a rear wheel steer car, all four wheels will not being going the same direction, ie the back of the car wants to go left or right, when driven in a straight line,going round bend even at low speed the back end just snaps out. The thread also seems to offend one side in the debate.
i.e.:
calling a 6RS a 'dog' is offensive to 6RS (and 6GT3 owners given the same base platform) because it implies that they are basically too stupid to realise this themselves and are driving lemons. They of course are motoring aficionados as well and therefore would beg to disagree
calling an automated gearbox (by my definition) an 'auto' offends PDK/PDK-S owners because it reminds them of their diesel station car in the 'D' position and not the pinnacle of modern motor racing that it is
I am beginning to perversly enjoy the fact that recent threads have endless stamina!
Edited by LaSource on Sunday 8th June 11:42
Once the 991GT3 is set up correctly, the only way to do this is through a manual input, the car is the best handling car I have ever driven, and by a big margin..
I will agree however, that if you are on a crap crap B road with serious bumps and potholes (the type where you are regularly scraping the front splitter) in a 6GT3 or 6RS (whatever the geo setting) and try to drive like the clappers, you will probably end up in a hedge. This is because the cars so stiff that you are likely to have only 3 wheels on the ground at some point. A standard big v8 (a la AMG merc, M5, even a LR Discovery Diesel) will be way faster on more compliant suspension and a 997 GT3 a bit nicer on the softer damper setting but not materially quicker. If I am on such a crap crap road them I drive at 40-50 mph max if nothing else then to save a splitter. But that is not a dog of a car....its the wrong road. On almost all A roads, and vast majority of B roads this is not an issue.
I wonder if the negative comments come from people who tried to drive hard on a crap crap (technical term
) road and not realised (as Steve Rance also highlighted) that they are in a mini cup car on the wrong road. If however, you still maintain that it is a dog on the average road and on oem suspension (i.e without £20k spent on it), then I happily offer you a test drive in mine - genuinely. In case your one was a lemon. Mine is completely standard - apart from the geo...but that is just £200-£300 labour. All oem spec bushes, links, dampers, springs, etc. It has a working diff. I assume you have one of those insurances which allows you to drive other cars comp...if not this car will be on such a scheme come August renewal.LaSource said:
I would still beg to disagree with respect to 6RS. I've owned and driven both 6GT3 and 6RS on OEM geo settings. They do not steer like dogs unless the geo is so way out in which case we are not talking about these cars out of the box but f@@ked up cars instead. On standard out of the box geo there is more understeer dialled in which makes it very safe for newcomers and not more dangerous.
I will agree however, that if you are on a crap crap B road with serious bumps and potholes (the type where you are regularly scraping the front splitter) in a 6GT3 or 6RS (whatever the geo setting) and try to drive like the clappers, you will probably end up in a hedge. This is because the cars so stiff that you are likely to have only 3 wheels on the ground at some point. A standard big v8 (a la AMG merc, M5, even a LR Discovery Diesel) will be way faster on more compliant suspension and a 997 GT3 a bit nicer on the softer damper setting but not materially quicker. If I am on such a crap crap road them I drive at 40-50 mph max if nothing else then to save a splitter. But that is not a dog of a car....its the wrong road. On almost all A roads, and vast majority of B roads this is not an issue.
I wonder if the negative comments come from people who tried to drive hard on a crap crap (technical term) road and not realised (as Steve Rance also highlighted) that they are in a mini cup car on the wrong road. If however, you still maintain that it is a dog on the average road and on oem suspension (i.e without £20k spent on it), then I happily offer you a test drive in mine - genuinely. In case your one was a lemon. Mine is completely standard - apart from the geo...but that is just £200-£300 labour. All oem spec bushes, links, dampers, springs, etc. It has a working diff. I assume you have one of those insurances which allows you to drive other cars comp...if not this car will be on such a scheme come August renewal.
My point- which i think Apollo was referring to - was that although the base line geo setting on the 6RS was perfect;y fine, some OPC's did not make a good job of translating it onto cars before delivery and it was not uncommon to see cars delivered with 'interesting' set ups. i think that's why some ex owners had a difficult time understanding why so many other drivers absolutely the car. Set up tollerences on race cars are a lot tighter that a stock road car. I will agree however, that if you are on a crap crap B road with serious bumps and potholes (the type where you are regularly scraping the front splitter) in a 6GT3 or 6RS (whatever the geo setting) and try to drive like the clappers, you will probably end up in a hedge. This is because the cars so stiff that you are likely to have only 3 wheels on the ground at some point. A standard big v8 (a la AMG merc, M5, even a LR Discovery Diesel) will be way faster on more compliant suspension and a 997 GT3 a bit nicer on the softer damper setting but not materially quicker. If I am on such a crap crap road them I drive at 40-50 mph max if nothing else then to save a splitter. But that is not a dog of a car....its the wrong road. On almost all A roads, and vast majority of B roads this is not an issue.
I wonder if the negative comments come from people who tried to drive hard on a crap crap (technical term
) road and not realised (as Steve Rance also highlighted) that they are in a mini cup car on the wrong road. If however, you still maintain that it is a dog on the average road and on oem suspension (i.e without £20k spent on it), then I happily offer you a test drive in mine - genuinely. In case your one was a lemon. Mine is completely standard - apart from the geo...but that is just £200-£300 labour. All oem spec bushes, links, dampers, springs, etc. It has a working diff. I assume you have one of those insurances which allows you to drive other cars comp...if not this car will be on such a scheme come August renewal.Steve Rance said:
My point- which i think Apollo was referring to - was that although the base line geo setting on the 6RS was perfect;y fine, some OPC's did not make a good job of translating it onto cars before delivery and it was not uncommon to see cars delivered with 'interesting' set ups. i think that's why some ex owners had a difficult time understanding why so many other drivers absolutely the car. Set up tollerences on race cars are a lot tighter that a stock road car.
Ok - I can buy that. I agree these cars are very sensitive to setup. Even a 1 psi difference across an axle can affect how the car steers. Changing from tyre brand X to Y changes the feel and behaviour significantly.So if we are saying that some cars were badly setup then that could be true. But surely everyone who buys almost any GT3 does a geo check early on as they are all so individual and who knows what the previous owner or OPC tried to do...not to mention that a few bad potholes can knock things around anyway. Maybe in the early days of new delivery there were not enough experienced outfits around (e.g. Parr, JZM, etc, etc) who knew what they were doing. Having said that the stock settings should have been fine if correctly adjusted.
I think it is misleading then to call the car an inherent 'dog out of the box'...you may refer to the OPC who set it up as related to a canine perhaps
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