Best place to start in search for 'classic' 911

[Lungauer]

uktrailmonster said:

I do hope you gave it a good test drive! I really couldn't imagine giving up my 997 for a 964 and certainly not a GTS. As much as I like the 964 I'd miss the modern chassis and performance too much. Be interesting to see how you get on and hope it works out as expected. The good thing is that you will always get your money back on the 964 down the line.

Never driven a 964. Not even seen the car!

[lboase]

Lungauer said:

It is the Lawton Brook car, currently having some minor things done at RPM. I won't stray too much from original, but looking forward to a certain amount of tinkering. Not something that can be really done on the GTS.

I've spoken to RPM who have vouched for the car, but should I have another independent PPI done by someone else since they are doing the work for LB? As far as I know RPM are not connected to Lawton Brook. Also where can I get the chassis and engine numbers verified? It was supplied new by OPC Leeds (or whatever they were called in 1990) - could they help?

If it were me, I would get it an independent inspection done, it's nice to know exactly what you're buying - original panels, rust free, matching numbers, not to mention mechanical condition - the more you know the better. Not questioning RPM's independence in any way.

I've had my 964 for 2 years. They are great, the right balance of classic vs modern IMO

[uktrailmonster]

Lungauer said:

Never driven a 964. Not even seen the car!

Good luck with that then! Be interesting to see how you feel about chopping in a GTS for one. I wouldn't personally, but I'd entertain a 964 as an additional weekend car.

[mollytherocker]

Lungauer said:

Never driven a 964. Not even seen the car!

A brave man, or very foolish?

[IMI A]

Lungauer said:

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

you have bought the best of the air-cooled imo - 964s do cost a bit more to run but worth it

[Lungauer]

mollytherocker said:

A brave man, or very foolish?

Good question. Some of the best vehicles I've owned I had not driven before purchasing. But if the car passes it's PPI and I'm happy with it when I see it I can't imagine the driving experience can be too off-putting. I've owned some pretty agricultural vehicles before (3 Caterhams, 3 Defenders), surely this will be luxury by comparison. OK the 997 is much more civilised and easy to live with, but does therein lie the problem? Edited to add; weekend car only, as was the GTS. Wife won't let me have the two, what with the motorbikes, even though I told her that a GTS and a 964 was the perfect combination.

Edited by Lungauer on Friday 1st August 09:51

[hot66]

as a toy, I'd have an aircooled 911 over a 997 anyday

[uktrailmonster]

Lungauer said:

Some of the best vehicles I've owned I had not driven before purchasing.

I guess the driving experience is secondary for you then. Personally I wouldn't buy any car without driving one and deciding I liked the experience first. Each to their own I guess.

Now I know the 964 is currently in fashion, but I personally find them quite a dull drive in standard spec. Not dissimilar to a modern car in many ways, but without the performance. However I did own a 964 RS for quite a few years and they feel totally different, far more alive than the standard car. At the time I drove both RS and standard C2 back to back (several examples of each too) and couldn't believe the difference in the RS, which was genuinely exciting compared to instantly forgettable. I'm sure a few well chosen chassis mods would bring a C2 to life, but don't expect it to be an exciting drive in standard form, they just aren't. The 964 was a big step from the C3.2 in terms of refinement, which made it easier to live with on a daily basis, but ultimately less exciting to drive. Not my recipe for a weekend special 25 years later.

But really hope you like the car, it is a classic for sure. Certainly a safe intro to older 911s, but from my own experience not the best of the air-cooled cars by a long shot. But RS aside, still possibly one of the best value for money classic 911 options at £30K ish for a good low mileage example.

[boxsey]

Lungauer said:

mollytherocker said:

A brave man, or very foolish?

Good question. Some of the best vehicles I've owned I had not driven before purchasing. But if the car passes it's PPI and I'm happy with it when I see it I can't imagine the driving experience can be too off-putting. I've owned some pretty agricultural vehicles before (3 Caterhams, 3 Defenders), surely this will be luxury by comparison. OK the 997 is much more civilised and easy to live with, but does therein lie the problem? Edited to add; weekend car only, as was the GTS. Wife won't let me have the two, what with the motorbikes, even though I told her that a GTS and a 964 was the perfect combination.

Edited by Lungauer on Friday 1st August 09:51

For the first few weeks you might wonder to yourself what the heck you've done. I did when I first bought mine. But give it time and it will start to come together and you'll grin more and more each time you take it. Then as you slowly change things it'll get better and better and give more and more feedback. Good suspension, the correct geo set up and losing weight is the key to making them more agile and more alive.

[bigunit00]

uktrailmonster said:

I guess the driving experience is secondary for you then. Personally I wouldn't buy any car without driving one and deciding I liked the experience first. Each to their own I guess.

Now I know the 964 is currently in fashion, but I personally find them quite a dull drive in standard spec. Not dissimilar to a modern car in many ways, but without the performance. However I did own a 964 RS for quite a few years and they feel totally different, far more alive than the standard car. At the time I drove both RS and standard C2 back to back (several examples of each too) and couldn't believe the difference in the RS, which was genuinely exciting compared to instantly forgettable. I'm sure a few well chosen chassis mods would bring a C2 to life, but don't expect it to be an exciting drive in standard form, they just aren't. The 964 was a big step from the C3.2 in terms of refinement, which made it easier to live with on a daily basis, but ultimately less exciting to drive. Not my recipe for a weekend special 25 years later.

But really hope you like the car, it is a classic for sure. Certainly a safe intro to older 911s, but from my own experience not the best of the air-cooled cars by a long shot. But RS aside, still possibly one of the best value for money classic 911 options at £30K ish for a good low mileage example.

nothing some KW's / Recaro PP's / minor exhaust mods - decat,g-pipe etc / and a big brake upgrade couldnt fix (and could easily be reverted back to standard if required). A few grand for that lot though........

[uktrailmonster]

bigunit00 said:

nothing some KW's / Recaro PP's / minor exhaust mods - decat,g-pipe etc / and a big brake upgrade couldnt fix (and could easily be reverted back to standard if required). A few grand for that lot though........

That's kind of what I was trying to say. The standard car is a bit dull for a weekend special, which is why you see so many modded examples today.

[andyc11]

As much as I love my GTS, I often find myself scanning through the classifieds looking at the 'older' variety of 911's, so can completely relate to the reason behind changing. In an ideal world, there'd be my GTS and another 911 in the garage, ideally a well looked after 3.2. Would I change my GTS for one? Have to say no, but that's just me. The Lawton Brook 964 is a stunner, congrats on the purchase.

[Lungauer]

uktrailmonster said:

I guess the driving experience is secondary for you then. Personally I wouldn't buy any car without driving one and deciding I liked the experience first. Each to their own I guess.

Now I know the 964 is currently in fashion, but I personally find them quite a dull drive in standard spec. Not dissimilar to a modern car in many ways, but without the performance. However I did own a 964 RS for quite a few years and they feel totally different, far more alive than the standard car. At the time I drove both RS and standard C2 back to back (several examples of each too) and couldn't believe the difference in the RS, which was genuinely exciting compared to instantly forgettable. I'm sure a few well chosen chassis mods would bring a C2 to life, but don't expect it to be an exciting drive in standard form, they just aren't. The 964 was a big step from the C3.2 in terms of refinement, which made it easier to live with on a daily basis, but ultimately less exciting to drive. Not my recipe for a weekend special 25 years later.

But really hope you like the car, it is a classic for sure. Certainly a safe intro to older 911s, but from my own experience not the best of the air-cooled cars by a long shot. But RS aside, still possibly one of the best value for money classic 911 options at £30K ish for a good low mileage example.

I hope not. I don't remember buying the 205 1.9 GTI or Corrado VR6 years ago without some understanding of how they handled, even though I hadn't driven one. To be fair some cars I bought on the strength of a similar predecessor; 1.6 GTI to 1.9, Supersport to R300. Doesn't a 911 fall into a similar category? My last bike, a KTM 950SM, I had never ridden before buying. Best bike I've ever owned. Still your opinion is very valid and does make me wonder. The plan was always to 'RS' it up a bit and a budget allowed for, so I hope that peps things up a bit. Life's short. If it doesn't work out perhaps I try a 3.2 - after driving one of course.

[hondansx]

I think you have to be careful, personally.

You have to remember that owners are always going to be biased towards their own cars. It's a bit dangerous to ask owners what they think of their cars; how many are going to say "Yeah, had it for 5 years, terrible really..."

Enthusiasts also seem to believe owning a decent car bestows them with considerable talent behind the wheel. My experience is that, actually, most people exaggerate when it comes to their ability and how they drive their car. Just look at the amount of GT3s that sell saying 'Never Tracked'!

I know i'm being nothing other than an annoying bd here, but i'd have to say, having driven a 964 i came away wondering what the fuss was all about. Like you, i've bought cars without test driving previously, but they have always been new cars with fantastic reviews from (sort of) impartial professionals.

[Lungauer]

OK so how about a straw poll. Which one to own...this?



or this?

[g7jhp]

Money aside I'd take the 997 GTS over a standard guards red 964 (I don't like guards red).

If I was spending money on a nice 964 I'd have gone for the nice modified 964 RS recreation in Maritime Blue which JZ Machtech sold recently (was on at late £40k's) over a 997 GTS.

Edited by g7jhp on Friday 1st August 16:53

[SEE YA]

I am happy with my choice.

[uktrailmonster]

Lungauer said:

I hope not. I don't remember buying the 205 1.9 GTI or Corrado VR6 years ago without some understanding of how they handled, even though I hadn't driven one. To be fair some cars I bought on the strength of a similar predecessor; 1.6 GTI to 1.9, Supersport to R300. Doesn't a 911 fall into a similar category? My last bike, a KTM 950SM, I had never ridden before buying. Best bike I've ever owned. Still your opinion is very valid and does make me wonder. The plan was always to 'RS' it up a bit and a budget allowed for, so I hope that peps things up a bit. Life's short. If it doesn't work out perhaps I try a 3.2 - after driving one of course.

A 964 C2 is too far removed from a 997 GTS to make any kind of meaningful driving comparison. It's nothing like 1.6 to 1.9 GTi or Supersport to R300. They are simply lightyears apart in development. The things you will notice instantly are much heavier controls, basic cabin, lack of grunt and a much softer chassis i.e. torsional rigidity. On the plus side they feel quite light and nimble compared to the newer cars. Just the physical size helps a lot on narrower roads. You will definitely need to "RS" it up a bit to make it feel quick and alive, but they do respond well as others have noted. Be interesting to see how you get on with it.

[WallyCarrera]

uktrailmonster said:

The things you will notice instantly are much heavier controls, basic cabin, lack of grunt and a much softer chassis i.e. torsional rigidity.

Interesting comment re torsional rigidity. No doubt you are correct and I'm aware of the percentage increases claimed between the model generations. But, my 964 never feels flexy on the road. There are no creaks or groans that I can detect. Granted, if I jack up one corner of the car (I know this is bad) then the door needs a slightly bigger slam to close fully. So, I suppose this in itself confirms a slight distortion of the chassis, albeit by a tiny amount. I also run a 997 but find it difficult to make comparisons because the PASM dampers take the strain so well. The 964 feels like it has relatively soft springs but firm damping.

[g7jhp]

Lungauer said:

lboase said:

Congrats! I assume it's the Lawton Brook car? Looks fantastic in the pics.

Would benefit from a suspension refresh with lower ride height. I'd be tempted to stick with the D90s and flags. Also G pipe and de-cat an easy win - sounds brilliant.

You'll enjoy it whatever you do, looks a great car.

It is the Lawton Brook car, currently having some minor things done at RPM. I won't stray too much from original, but looking forward to a certain amount of tinkering. Not something that can be really done on the GTS.

The Lawton Brook car still appears to be for sale, didn't you buy it?