the new GT4 and spec's, what do YOU want ?
Discussion
HokumPokum said:
?.... I had a cayman R and I still dun get why some owners can't get that it is simply a lightly but well tweaked cayman s. Nothing more and far far away from what a gt3 is to a carrera s
.
+1, the cayman r is a very neat and well sorted car but it is nothing like as special as a gt3 to drive imo..
It is interesting reading through this thread and I suspect goes some way to explaining the reason for the current 991 GT3 (in a non judgemental sense, thats not a dig or back handed snipe)
While always dangerous to assume that any internet thread/pub chat is an accurate barometer of current climate there is certainly a theme here that was mirrored in threads relating to the GT3 too.
Further evidence of the schism amongst the Porscheanista - or the marginalisation of a customer base that is no doubt demanding and expensive to feed?
That there is not a bunch of people shouting for the opportunity to have a proper balls to the wall cayman is disappointing but it is not perhaps a surprise. The voices were fairly scant even in the GT3 threads after all.
What is a disappointment and a surprise is the lack of anyone asking for a car that addresses the glaring flaws present in the cayman platform. No one?
While arguments over spec/hardcore-ness will always exist and remain unbridgeable (each wants what he wants after all) I really thought that owners and fans would have been pretty unanimous in their calls for addressing areas of the platform that are crying out for improvement. The prospect of a special cayman offering the prospect to give it some special stuff under the skin.
These improvements would after all transcend all talk relating to more superficial spec matters providing almost universal improvement.
The most powerful engine in the world will fail to address almost any of these shortcomings, in fact only serving to highlight them further.
For my own part, whether this will be Porsches push towards increasing its (sizeable) customer motorsports revenues by getting some presence in the GT4 series finally (by providing a new cayman for homologation after the flop of the first attempt) or whether its simply a nomenclature and nothing else still remains the most interesting question I have.
While always dangerous to assume that any internet thread/pub chat is an accurate barometer of current climate there is certainly a theme here that was mirrored in threads relating to the GT3 too.
Further evidence of the schism amongst the Porscheanista - or the marginalisation of a customer base that is no doubt demanding and expensive to feed?
That there is not a bunch of people shouting for the opportunity to have a proper balls to the wall cayman is disappointing but it is not perhaps a surprise. The voices were fairly scant even in the GT3 threads after all.
What is a disappointment and a surprise is the lack of anyone asking for a car that addresses the glaring flaws present in the cayman platform. No one?
While arguments over spec/hardcore-ness will always exist and remain unbridgeable (each wants what he wants after all) I really thought that owners and fans would have been pretty unanimous in their calls for addressing areas of the platform that are crying out for improvement. The prospect of a special cayman offering the prospect to give it some special stuff under the skin.
These improvements would after all transcend all talk relating to more superficial spec matters providing almost universal improvement.
The most powerful engine in the world will fail to address almost any of these shortcomings, in fact only serving to highlight them further.
For my own part, whether this will be Porsches push towards increasing its (sizeable) customer motorsports revenues by getting some presence in the GT4 series finally (by providing a new cayman for homologation after the flop of the first attempt) or whether its simply a nomenclature and nothing else still remains the most interesting question I have.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 26th July 12:28
Lol. Agreed mr D
But the point remains that I want a gt3 lite version on the cayman platform. That it'll be slower and won't have as much hp will not bother me.
I think the current gts is better for those that will do a fair amount of time driving in the wkns and road use. For others like me, I want it to be a genuine alternative to the exige cup.
Let's hope Porsche gives us a real mid engine hero.
But the point remains that I want a gt3 lite version on the cayman platform. That it'll be slower and won't have as much hp will not bother me.
I think the current gts is better for those that will do a fair amount of time driving in the wkns and road use. For others like me, I want it to be a genuine alternative to the exige cup.
Let's hope Porsche gives us a real mid engine hero.
fioran0 said:
It is interesting reading through this thread and I suspect goes some way to explaining the reason for the current 991 GT3 (in a non judgemental sense, thats not a dig or back handed snipe)
While always dangerous to assume that any internet thread/pub chat is an accurate barometer of current climate there is certainly a theme here that was mirrored in threads relating to the GT3 too.
Further evidence of the schism amongst the Porscheanista - or the marginalisation of a customer base that is no doubt demanding and expensive to feed?
That there is not a bunch of people shouting for the opportunity to have a proper balls to the wall cayman is disappointing but it is not perhaps a surprise. The voices were fairly scant even in the GT3 threads after all.
What is a disappointment and a surprise is the lack of anyone asking for a car that addresses the glaring flaws present in the cayman platform. No one?
While arguments over spec/hardcore-ness will always exist and remain unbridgeable (each wants what he wants after all) I really thought that owners and fans would have been pretty unanimous in their calls for addressing areas of the platform that are crying out for improvement. The prospect of a special cayman offering the prospect to give it some special stuff under the skin.
These improvements would after all transcend all talk relating to more superficial spec matters providing almost universal improvement.
The most powerful engine in the world will fail to address almost any of these shortcomings, in fact only serving to highlight them further.
For my own part, whether this will be Porsches push towards increasing its (sizeable) customer motorsports revenues by getting some presence in the GT4 series finally (by providing a new cayman for homologation after the flop of the first attempt) or whether its simply a nomenclature and nothing else still remains the most interesting question I have.
U mean the rear suspension not being at least multi link or dare I say double wishbone ?While always dangerous to assume that any internet thread/pub chat is an accurate barometer of current climate there is certainly a theme here that was mirrored in threads relating to the GT3 too.
Further evidence of the schism amongst the Porscheanista - or the marginalisation of a customer base that is no doubt demanding and expensive to feed?
That there is not a bunch of people shouting for the opportunity to have a proper balls to the wall cayman is disappointing but it is not perhaps a surprise. The voices were fairly scant even in the GT3 threads after all.
What is a disappointment and a surprise is the lack of anyone asking for a car that addresses the glaring flaws present in the cayman platform. No one?
While arguments over spec/hardcore-ness will always exist and remain unbridgeable (each wants what he wants after all) I really thought that owners and fans would have been pretty unanimous in their calls for addressing areas of the platform that are crying out for improvement. The prospect of a special cayman offering the prospect to give it some special stuff under the skin.
These improvements would after all transcend all talk relating to more superficial spec matters providing almost universal improvement.
The most powerful engine in the world will fail to address almost any of these shortcomings, in fact only serving to highlight them further.
For my own part, whether this will be Porsches push towards increasing its (sizeable) customer motorsports revenues by getting some presence in the GT4 series finally (by providing a new cayman for homologation after the flop of the first attempt) or whether its simply a nomenclature and nothing else still remains the most interesting question I have.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 26th July 12:28
Man, this is a cayman...... I'll be honest. 380 hp, 1250kgs, clubsport, 6 speed manual, 6 pot 380mm brakes and £70k base. I'll be contented.
mrdemon said:
For Porsche though, you cannot have a faster Cayman than GT3 or even a 991 S for less money.
I would suggest that its not possible at all, even if Porsche wanted it to be WITHOUT fundamental platform changes. More power is certainly not enough to do it alone. If you look at the gap between say a 430 scuderia and a 997 GT3 of similar model year there is almost no light between them.
This is relevant to the cayman v 911 discussion because the 430 scuderia is both mid engined AND has a significantly better platform than a Cayman.
Wide track, double wishbones, better brakes, more tyre, significant aero etc etc. Over and above this is also has more power/more torque, an e-diff and faster shifts. All of this combined leaves one still unable to place a sheet of paper between the two. This holds even with slicks on each car - thus removing the democratising nature of road tyres by letting both cars off their respective leashes.
fioran0 said:
mrdemon said:
For Porsche though, you cannot have a faster Cayman than GT3 or even a 991 S for less money.
I would suggest that its not possible at all, even if Porsche wanted it to be WITHOUT fundamental platform changes. More power is certainly not enough to do it alone. If you look at the gap between say a 430 scuderia and a 997 GT3 of similar model year there is almost no light between them.
This is relevant to the cayman v 911 discussion because the 430 scuderia is both mid engined AND has a significantly better platform than a Cayman.
Wide track, double wishbones, better brakes, more tyre, significant aero etc etc. Over and above this is also has more power/more torque, an e-diff and faster shifts. All of this combined leaves one still unable to place a sheet of paper between the two. This holds even with slicks on each car - thus removing the democratising nature of road tyres by letting both cars off their respective leashes.
mrdemon said:
you have gt3 owners swapping cars for the R you have 981 owners going back to the older R
it's the right car for what people now want, and prices are very strong now :-)
You also have people coming out of Cayman R's and going into 458's, people coming out of 458's going into Aston Martins and people coming out of Aston Martin's going into GT3's. it's the right car for what people now want, and prices are very strong now :-)
presumably based on your argument 458's , Aston Martin's and GT3's are also the right cars for what people want?
But seriously, if Porsche are to offer a Cayman GT4 then surely it should be as faithful a representation of the race car that they can practicably build? Like them or not, the original GT3's (996 and to a lesser extent the 997), had credibility and a honesty about them because they were close representations of the race cars that shared their name. That was the essence of thier 'specialness'. Obviously the silly little men that these days preside over the design of such Cars (presumably more interested in scoring points off of each other than creating anything remotely interesting) are so devoid of integrity that they have now decided that GT3's no longer need to bear any significant mechanical similarity with the race car. Of course , they have an opportunity to redeem themselves in the design of the Cayman GT4 and once again produce a car with real substance but there needs to be a demand for such a car to warrant it and there - I suspect - is the rub.
It all boils down to the the big question. Is the GT4 to be a car of real substance or just another souless cynical marketing invented by souless little men in what is rapidly becoming a souless company.
There is a lot to be said for Motors designed by Autocrats the likes of Enzo Ferrari, Dr F. Porsche and Colin Chapman. Love them or hate them, thier cars had soul and integrity because they had vision and thier word was final. The GT4 has the opportunity to be a truly great car but I suspect that by the time it had passed through the design committe, all of the lovely rough edges of the race car will be carefully smoothed off and removed leaving just another bar of motoring soap.
Steve Rance said:
It all boils down to the the big question. Is the GT4 to be a car of real substance or just another souless cynical marketing invented by souless little men in what is rapidly becoming a souless company.
There is a lot to be said for Motors designed by Autocrats the likes of Enzo Ferrari, Dr F. Porsche and Colin Chapman. Love them or hate them, thier cars had soul and integrity because they had vision and thier word was final. The GT4 has the opportunity to be a truly great car but I suspect that by the time it had passed through the design committe, all of the lovely rough edges of the race car will be carefully smoothed off and removed leaving just another bar of motoring soap.
There is a lot to be said for Motors designed by Autocrats the likes of Enzo Ferrari, Dr F. Porsche and Colin Chapman. Love them or hate them, thier cars had soul and integrity because they had vision and thier word was final. The GT4 has the opportunity to be a truly great car but I suspect that by the time it had passed through the design committe, all of the lovely rough edges of the race car will be carefully smoothed off and removed leaving just another bar of motoring soap.
Chapeau!
Issue is, we are not racers,
Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
mrdemon said:
Issue is, we are not racers,
Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
Of course thats fine but don't call the car a GT4. Call it something else. Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
Steve Rance said:
mrdemon said:
Issue is, we are not racers,
Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
Of course thats fine but don't call the car a GT4. Call it something else. Issue two is porsche need to sell some
Porsche only sold 200 cayman R's in the uk and most of those were speced comfort.
And about 5 x73 speced 981’s Lol
So the 4 people here who want a race car buy a v6 Exige cup, or a GT3.
For the rest of us we would like some thing a bit more exciting than a GTS. , but one we can use every day and only have to own 1 car.
Is there a bigger market for a car like that or is it just me ?
It's daft a Renault can be speced with Ohlins, buckets, big brakes, cup 2’s and it exhausts .
mrdemon said:
we need to keep GT3 talk off this thread please, it will take a wrong turn.
No, we need to hang on to it for dear life. What i look for is a new version of the 996 GT3. 360-380 hp, N/A, 6 manual gears. No fancy rear steer and not to wide for a back road.But above all. NO TURBO !
Steve Rance said:
You also have people coming out of Cayman R's and going into 458's, people coming out of 458's going into Aston Martins and people coming out of Aston Martin's going into GT3's.
presumably based on your argument 458's , Aston Martin's and GT3's are also the right cars for what people want?
But seriously, if Porsche are to offer a Cayman GT4 then surely it should be as faithful a representation of the race car that they can practicably build? Like them or not, the original GT3's (996 and to a lesser extent the 997), had credibility and a honesty about them because they were close representations of the race cars that shared their name. That was the essence of thier 'specialness'. Obviously the silly little men that these days preside over the design of such Cars (presumably more interested in scoring points off of each other than creating anything remotely interesting) are so devoid of integrity that they have now decided that GT3's no longer need to bear any significant mechanical similarity with the race car. Of course , they have an opportunity to redeem themselves in the design of the Cayman GT4 and once again produce a car with real substance but there needs to be a demand for such a car to warrant it and there - I suspect - is the rub.
It all boils down to the the big question. Is the GT4 to be a car of real substance or just another souless cynical marketing invented by souless little men in what is rapidly becoming a souless company.
There is a lot to be said for Motors designed by Autocrats the likes of Enzo Ferrari, Dr F. Porsche and Colin Chapman. Love them or hate them, thier cars had soul and integrity because they had vision and thier word was final. The GT4 has the opportunity to be a truly great car but I suspect that by the time it had passed through the design committe, all of the lovely rough edges of the race car will be carefully smoothed off and removed leaving just another bar of motoring soap.
BRAVO !presumably based on your argument 458's , Aston Martin's and GT3's are also the right cars for what people want?
But seriously, if Porsche are to offer a Cayman GT4 then surely it should be as faithful a representation of the race car that they can practicably build? Like them or not, the original GT3's (996 and to a lesser extent the 997), had credibility and a honesty about them because they were close representations of the race cars that shared their name. That was the essence of thier 'specialness'. Obviously the silly little men that these days preside over the design of such Cars (presumably more interested in scoring points off of each other than creating anything remotely interesting) are so devoid of integrity that they have now decided that GT3's no longer need to bear any significant mechanical similarity with the race car. Of course , they have an opportunity to redeem themselves in the design of the Cayman GT4 and once again produce a car with real substance but there needs to be a demand for such a car to warrant it and there - I suspect - is the rub.
It all boils down to the the big question. Is the GT4 to be a car of real substance or just another souless cynical marketing invented by souless little men in what is rapidly becoming a souless company.
There is a lot to be said for Motors designed by Autocrats the likes of Enzo Ferrari, Dr F. Porsche and Colin Chapman. Love them or hate them, thier cars had soul and integrity because they had vision and thier word was final. The GT4 has the opportunity to be a truly great car but I suspect that by the time it had passed through the design committe, all of the lovely rough edges of the race car will be carefully smoothed off and removed leaving just another bar of motoring soap.
From my perspective the 991GT3 is a more usable road car than the 997GT3 was. I would like the Cayman GT4 to be above the Cayman GTS to the same extent the 997GT3 was above the 997GTS.
I don't want a track car, I don't want a RS/Cup car. I want a Cayman which is a big step above a Cayman GTS which I can still enjoy on the road without doing total idiot speeds. I still want decent spec and comfort for long trips but also the ability to have fun on road and track when I want it. The 991GT3 is apparently too quick for UK roads at seven tenths but a similarly idealised but lower powered Cayman could be something special and much more usable.
If Porsche then want to produce a limited edition stripped out club sport for development to full GT4 racing then fine. The 911GT3 is not closely related to the Cup and race cars so why do people keep trying to make the link?
I don't want a track car, I don't want a RS/Cup car. I want a Cayman which is a big step above a Cayman GTS which I can still enjoy on the road without doing total idiot speeds. I still want decent spec and comfort for long trips but also the ability to have fun on road and track when I want it. The 991GT3 is apparently too quick for UK roads at seven tenths but a similarly idealised but lower powered Cayman could be something special and much more usable.
If Porsche then want to produce a limited edition stripped out club sport for development to full GT4 racing then fine. The 911GT3 is not closely related to the Cup and race cars so why do people keep trying to make the link?
These two quotes are the most the intelligent insights i've seen posted in this thread so far:
Even the Driven article from PH - http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... - says that the R is better as a road experience than an out and out track weapon.
So this was all 2011.... Fast forward to today and we have the new incarnation of this car - Which Porsche have now named correctly - Cayman GTS. The reviews are effectively even the same - but this time because the designation is GTS - reviewers are not focussed on it being track optimised - they are reviewing with road driving perspective, and also paying compliments to its track capabilities.
I believe, but some may refuse to accept that the GTS is the new R, only updated for todays world, just as the 991 GT3 is the update for the 997 GT3. Electric-in-steering is an unavoidable step in the evolution of motorcars - and it becoming more common in various forms from electro-hydraulic to EPAS to full drive/steer by wire. The transition is a journey in calibration - digital is never quite the same as analogue, - but we live in a digital world that can get close enough with ever high levels of resolution.
So with regards to the 'GT4' - I 100% agree with DiscoColin - and i'd like to see a very clear gap.
The 'GT4' should be hardcore optimised for track and will be compromised for the road - just as the GT3/GT3RS supposedly is compromised for the road - basically an Exige V6 Cup rival.
For the ultimate 'spirited driving' road experience with occasional track capability - you want a GTS.
HokumPokum said:
Unfortunately, if the gt4 is akin to the mid engine version of the gt3, this will ruin the dreams of a few cayman R owners. I had a cayman R and I still dun get why some owners can't get that it is simply a lightly but well tweaked cayman s. Nothing more and far far away from what a gt3 is to a carrera s
DiscoColin said:
The whole premise of the GT3 was that you drive it to the track, you drive it round the track, you drive it home. And if you want, you can drive it in all manner of other places too, but with the acceptance that it really isn't optimised for bumps and pot-holes. The Cayman GT4 (if that is what it is to be) should be a mid engined variation on the same theme. If you want a comfortable road car that is also decent enough to take on the track every once in a while then I am afraid that you were not paying attention : Porsche already make that car, it is called the Cayman GTS and it is very, very good. Moreover, with the GTS available with passive dampers, bucket seats and an LSD: if a road car is what you want then there is nothing else for a "GT4" to bring to the party that you could even nearly benefit from at road legal speeds unless you are just a boost monkey looking for a faster getaway at the traffic light grand prix...
Or is what you are saying really more along the lines that you want a GTS, but with a more exclusive badge...?
Many of you may remember when the Cayman R came out, the reviews for it were not exactly setting the world on fire. Most say that yes - this was the hottest version of the already sublime Cayman S. Yes it had lightness added with the aluminium doors, BUT was it really worthy of the R badge that once graced the 911 R which was a stripped out lighten version of the 1967 911 that was optimised for racing and first in the line of motorsport 911s. Many reviews even questioned the use of the R designation and suggested that actually it should have been called a GTS - but R it remained. Or is what you are saying really more along the lines that you want a GTS, but with a more exclusive badge...?
Even the Driven article from PH - http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... - says that the R is better as a road experience than an out and out track weapon.
So this was all 2011.... Fast forward to today and we have the new incarnation of this car - Which Porsche have now named correctly - Cayman GTS. The reviews are effectively even the same - but this time because the designation is GTS - reviewers are not focussed on it being track optimised - they are reviewing with road driving perspective, and also paying compliments to its track capabilities.
I believe, but some may refuse to accept that the GTS is the new R, only updated for todays world, just as the 991 GT3 is the update for the 997 GT3. Electric-in-steering is an unavoidable step in the evolution of motorcars - and it becoming more common in various forms from electro-hydraulic to EPAS to full drive/steer by wire. The transition is a journey in calibration - digital is never quite the same as analogue, - but we live in a digital world that can get close enough with ever high levels of resolution.
So with regards to the 'GT4' - I 100% agree with DiscoColin - and i'd like to see a very clear gap.
The 'GT4' should be hardcore optimised for track and will be compromised for the road - just as the GT3/GT3RS supposedly is compromised for the road - basically an Exige V6 Cup rival.
For the ultimate 'spirited driving' road experience with occasional track capability - you want a GTS.
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