The Porsche Bubble Explodes - 'PEAK BEARD'
Discussion
The market, across the board, is over-heated. We're not going to have a 'crash', unless there is some sort of global disaster, but we do need a correction to restore some sense of stability.
Genuine, rare, collectables, might well buck the trend, but looking at PH classifieds, there's a lot of 'past it tat' chasing laughable prices.
Agree though, the very nicest air-cooled cars with low miles and in the right spec. will remain sought after.
Genuine, rare, collectables, might well buck the trend, but looking at PH classifieds, there's a lot of 'past it tat' chasing laughable prices.
Agree though, the very nicest air-cooled cars with low miles and in the right spec. will remain sought after.
mollytherocker said:
Hi All
I have been banging on about increases in RS, GT and air cooled cars for the past couple of years and was very much of the view that its just the market in action, with International forces just increasing the pressure.
But, I am starting to think that its gone too far and some traders have been manipulating this rise in prices to their advantage (maybe even working as a cartel). The horror eh?
This Summer we have seen some crazy rises and I am wondering whether it is sustainable and whether we have hit 'peak beard' (Copyright MTR). A 993RS for 250k? Gen 2 GT3 non RS at 100k? 964RS at lord knows what now!
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is an almighty crash due, but we may be at the summit, with some 'corrections' to come and then a levelling out over the next few years.
Therefore, I am offically calling a bubble. Views?
Totally agree fella.I have been banging on about increases in RS, GT and air cooled cars for the past couple of years and was very much of the view that its just the market in action, with International forces just increasing the pressure.
But, I am starting to think that its gone too far and some traders have been manipulating this rise in prices to their advantage (maybe even working as a cartel). The horror eh?
This Summer we have seen some crazy rises and I am wondering whether it is sustainable and whether we have hit 'peak beard' (Copyright MTR). A 993RS for 250k? Gen 2 GT3 non RS at 100k? 964RS at lord knows what now!
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is an almighty crash due, but we may be at the summit, with some 'corrections' to come and then a levelling out over the next few years.
Therefore, I am offically calling a bubble. Views?
Priced out of the normal working mans means.
Also how could you enjoy a car worth this amount of money for fear of damaging it!
Dealers are having a laugh obviously, cartel is far from the truth.
Mind you if i had that sort of money i still wouldn't pay the current perceived values.
I would say the market is not overheated but still warming up,the 2.7 is not that rare and will find its level again at some point.
The rare stuff with good provenance is still very much sougt after,some thinking porsche are a bargain at the moment still.
Not talking about a lot of the cars that are on the bandwagon,as you say some are real tat,and some i would be worrying about buying now.
A big plus is some cars are now being restored ,that would never have seen the light of day agian,if the values had not risen.
Cars that are worth a lot more now,are not really any more expensive to repair as long as well insured,best get out and use them.
The rare stuff with good provenance is still very much sougt after,some thinking porsche are a bargain at the moment still.
Not talking about a lot of the cars that are on the bandwagon,as you say some are real tat,and some i would be worrying about buying now.
A big plus is some cars are now being restored ,that would never have seen the light of day agian,if the values had not risen.
Cars that are worth a lot more now,are not really any more expensive to repair as long as well insured,best get out and use them.
I understand that Boxsters may be cheap and undervalued, but getting back to the OP -
In terms of desirability a Boxster is a completely different creature to an air cooled 911 !
Like many 993 owners the only issue I have with the price rise in recent times is a reluctance to
put more miles on the clock....it's obviously nice to see an asset increase in value but it's all relative-
If I sell and want to buy another air cooled then I'm no better off anyway.
The dealers are asking silly money for some models, considering the scarcity of a 964rs and how
many are actually listed and available for sale at present one can assume they are over priced
else surely such a sought after model would sell quickly- not languish around.
In terms of desirability a Boxster is a completely different creature to an air cooled 911 !
Like many 993 owners the only issue I have with the price rise in recent times is a reluctance to
put more miles on the clock....it's obviously nice to see an asset increase in value but it's all relative-
If I sell and want to buy another air cooled then I'm no better off anyway.
The dealers are asking silly money for some models, considering the scarcity of a 964rs and how
many are actually listed and available for sale at present one can assume they are over priced
else surely such a sought after model would sell quickly- not languish around.
mollytherocker said:
Hi All
I have been banging on about increases in RS, GT and air cooled cars for the past couple of years and was very much of the view that its just the market in action, with International forces just increasing the pressure.
But, I am starting to think that its gone too far and some traders have been manipulating this rise in prices to their advantage (maybe even working as a cartel). The horror eh?
This Summer we have seen some crazy rises and I am wondering whether it is sustainable and whether we have hit 'peak beard' (Copyright MTR). A 993RS for 250k? Gen 2 GT3 non RS at 100k? 964RS at lord knows what now!
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is an almighty crash due, but we may be at the summit, with some 'corrections' to come and then a levelling out over the next few years.
Therefore, I am offically calling a bubble. Views?
Once these cars start going well north of £100K they attract a different sort of buyer to the straightforward classic Porsche enthusiast. They either become a fashion accessory for the rich or a pure investment for the rich or both! I know some very rich people who are genuine enthusiasts too, but they all bought these cars when they cost peanuts and nobody gave a toss about them. It's amazing how the price tag changes the perceived cool factor of a car. A 964RS was once (not very long ago) just considered a low budget track slag. Anyone with the means and a genuine love for classic Porsche would have put a 2.7 RS, 964 RS, GT3 etc in their garage many moons before the latest silly price hikes. I know a few who have. Which makes you wonder who is actually buying them now?I have been banging on about increases in RS, GT and air cooled cars for the past couple of years and was very much of the view that its just the market in action, with International forces just increasing the pressure.
But, I am starting to think that its gone too far and some traders have been manipulating this rise in prices to their advantage (maybe even working as a cartel). The horror eh?
This Summer we have seen some crazy rises and I am wondering whether it is sustainable and whether we have hit 'peak beard' (Copyright MTR). A 993RS for 250k? Gen 2 GT3 non RS at 100k? 964RS at lord knows what now!
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is an almighty crash due, but we may be at the summit, with some 'corrections' to come and then a levelling out over the next few years.
Therefore, I am offically calling a bubble. Views?
Anyway, since very few people can afford to drop £250K on a toy car, you'd have to say the market is going to be a bit fragile. As soon as the rich folk who want the latest trend in classic Porsche have all bought one and moved on and the investment types lose a few quid at some point, the market might well just crash and burn.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agreed, it isn't the actual driving experience that's driving classic prices. It's all about image and perceived investment potential. The Boxster is just a common or garden ten a penny budget Porsche to that kind of buyer. It has virtually zero serious investment potential and is not considered very cool in those circles. So it's never going to float the boat of a rich playboy looking for their next toy.I hope it stays that way too!
mollytherocker said:
SunDiver said:
Peak Beard got called back in April in The Guardian, though in a different context; those crazy hipsters...
I may have borrowed the term. I think it fits though. 
uktrailmonster said:
Once these cars start going well north of £100K they attract a different sort of buyer to the straightforward classic Porsche enthusiast. They either become a fashion accessory for the rich or a pure investment for the rich or both! I know some very rich people who are genuine enthusiasts too, but they all bought these cars when they cost peanuts and nobody gave a toss about them. It's amazing how the price tag changes the perceived cool factor of a car. A 964RS was once (not very long ago) just considered a low budget track slag. Anyone with the means and a genuine love for classic Porsche would have put a 2.7 RS, 964 RS, GT3 etc in their garage many moons before the latest silly price hikes. I know a few who have. Which makes you wonder who is actually buying them now?
Anyway, since very few people can afford to drop £250K on a toy car, you'd have to say the market is going to be a bit fragile. As soon as the rich folk who want the latest trend in classic Porsche have all bought one and moved on and the investment types lose a few quid at some point, the market might well just crash and burn.
Fragile is a good description,good cars with the right pedigree have had a long time coming correct adjustment compared to italian junk that has gone mad.The fragile part i think will be the silly money run of the mill cars like turbos etc,the blue chip for the want of a better description cars will probably stay strong.Anyway, since very few people can afford to drop £250K on a toy car, you'd have to say the market is going to be a bit fragile. As soon as the rich folk who want the latest trend in classic Porsche have all bought one and moved on and the investment types lose a few quid at some point, the market might well just crash and burn.
964 rs is still a track slag for enthusiast owners.
RichB said:
mollytherocker said:
SunDiver said:
Peak Beard got called back in April in The Guardian, though in a different context; those crazy hipsters...
I may have borrowed the term. I think it fits though. 
I've been after a 993 for a while and have been watching prices rise rapidly. Having seen whats happened/happening with RS prices and the 911 market in general I've decided to stay out.
Having paid £65k for a Ferrari 308 GTS in 1989 only to see it worth £15-20k 12 months later means I'm going sit on the side lines.
Been active in this type of market before and not wanting to participate again. All IMHO.
Having paid £65k for a Ferrari 308 GTS in 1989 only to see it worth £15-20k 12 months later means I'm going sit on the side lines.
Been active in this type of market before and not wanting to participate again. All IMHO.
david hockney said:
Like many 993 owners the only issue I have with the price rise in recent times is a reluctance to
put more miles on the clock....
In many ways I consider myself lucky that I bought such a high mile (107k) 993 Cab 18 months ago. All in wih a few bits to do it cost me £20k to have in good order. It was always going to be at the cheaper end of the scale and won't realistically do any significant appreciating once bills etc are paid. It just ticked over 123k the other day in the middle of our 6k+ mile euro trip and is probably still worth a couple of £k more than I paid for it. My Ferrari 550 on the other hand has done about 10% (once bills are deducted) in the last 18 months or so and appears to actually be a genuine appreciator (sic put more miles on the clock....
). In my head I'm just about to make the mental call as such, and possibly buy something to "replace" it and save it for a couple of K miles per year for truly special occasions.highway said:
The image of a Boxster is now so bad it's almost come full circle, with old, original cars on ambers now looking pretty cool. My Boxster S was a better drivers car than my current 993.
I'd have one - in this cornflower blue launch colour typical for both 996 and Boxster. Compared to all these weird automobile creatures on the road today, that car is peaceful, happy and innocent.Crazy4557 said:
Having paid £65k for a Ferrari 308 GTS in 1989 only to see it worth £15-20k 12 months later means I'm going sit on the side lines.
Been active in this type of market before and not wanting to participate again. All IMHO.
I was in a 328 GTS back then and they did some incredible ups and downs.
In just 4 years they went from list to as high as £225K at absolute peak and were then back down late 40K's by 1992. I bought a 4 owner 900 mile 89 G plate ABS car that had changed hands at 150K then 175K then 110K and then 47K.
[quote=cmoose
Aye. I prefer the way an early 986 drives to, say, a 3.2 Carrera. Of course, I'd take a 993 over either of them. But I do reckon the values of the aircooled cars is pretty obviously out of whack.
I've basically written off buying a 993 for myself for the foreseeable given the way prices are heading. Though I'd love a 993 or maybe a 964 (not driven the latter so not sure), they are only getting more expensive and even then I'd probably rather have an immaculate 986 with chassis tweaks than stretch myself to the bottom end of the 993 market and have a tatty, creaking, high-mile dog of a 993. £8-9k will buy you a perfect, very low mile 3.2 986.
Have thought for a while it would be interesting to compare, say, an early 986 2.5 on M030 to something like an old 2.4S and see which is actually more enjoyable to drive! It might well still be the 2.4S, but I suspect the 20x price premium of the air cooled effort would seem a bit ridiculous.
[/quote]
Interesting view. I own a 986S with M030 suspension set up by Center Gravity and a 3.2 Carrera. I've had the 986 since 2005 and driven over 100k miles in it. I still love it after all this time and it handles amazingly well since the suspension upgrade. However, I find that I need to drive it very fast to really enjoy myself which just isn't possible most of the time on public roads. Therefore about a year a go I bought a 3.2 Carrera because it is fun to drive at all speeds slow or fast. It may not be ultimately as competent as my 986, but it has more steering feel, the steering is more throttle adjustable, it sounds better, looks better, attracts more admiration from other motorists and every drive is more of an occasion. It is also more challenging to drive well, which is what I seek - the 986 is almost too well balanced. I believe these are the reasons why many enthusiasts seek out air cooled 911s and value them so highly. Modern cars may be faster and more efficient, but they don't provide what car enthusiasts like me seek. Speed isn't everything and anyway A/C 911s are certainly fast enough for the road and too have fun. Given this and that no more A/C 911s will ever be made, and that they are getting fewer in number due to corrosion/accidents, it is hardly surprising that they are increasingly in value. Increased demand for a sought after product dwindling in numbers is bound to increase values in a capitalist market.
Aye. I prefer the way an early 986 drives to, say, a 3.2 Carrera. Of course, I'd take a 993 over either of them. But I do reckon the values of the aircooled cars is pretty obviously out of whack.
I've basically written off buying a 993 for myself for the foreseeable given the way prices are heading. Though I'd love a 993 or maybe a 964 (not driven the latter so not sure), they are only getting more expensive and even then I'd probably rather have an immaculate 986 with chassis tweaks than stretch myself to the bottom end of the 993 market and have a tatty, creaking, high-mile dog of a 993. £8-9k will buy you a perfect, very low mile 3.2 986.
Have thought for a while it would be interesting to compare, say, an early 986 2.5 on M030 to something like an old 2.4S and see which is actually more enjoyable to drive! It might well still be the 2.4S, but I suspect the 20x price premium of the air cooled effort would seem a bit ridiculous.
[/quote]
Interesting view. I own a 986S with M030 suspension set up by Center Gravity and a 3.2 Carrera. I've had the 986 since 2005 and driven over 100k miles in it. I still love it after all this time and it handles amazingly well since the suspension upgrade. However, I find that I need to drive it very fast to really enjoy myself which just isn't possible most of the time on public roads. Therefore about a year a go I bought a 3.2 Carrera because it is fun to drive at all speeds slow or fast. It may not be ultimately as competent as my 986, but it has more steering feel, the steering is more throttle adjustable, it sounds better, looks better, attracts more admiration from other motorists and every drive is more of an occasion. It is also more challenging to drive well, which is what I seek - the 986 is almost too well balanced. I believe these are the reasons why many enthusiasts seek out air cooled 911s and value them so highly. Modern cars may be faster and more efficient, but they don't provide what car enthusiasts like me seek. Speed isn't everything and anyway A/C 911s are certainly fast enough for the road and too have fun. Given this and that no more A/C 911s will ever be made, and that they are getting fewer in number due to corrosion/accidents, it is hardly surprising that they are increasingly in value. Increased demand for a sought after product dwindling in numbers is bound to increase values in a capitalist market.
That's a very good post - and seems to follow a general consensus.
The aircooled cars covered a 'golden era', and the best examples are increasingly sought after. They won't be to everyone's taste, but the later the model the easier they are to live with.
But, in an ideal world, an aircooled 911 should be co-owned with a modern Porsche.
The aircooled cars covered a 'golden era', and the best examples are increasingly sought after. They won't be to everyone's taste, but the later the model the easier they are to live with.
But, in an ideal world, an aircooled 911 should be co-owned with a modern Porsche.
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