996T or 997 C2S (gen 1)?
Discussion
braddo said:
fstorm said:
???
Just a reference to Nine Excellence being around the corner, with their quite amazing array of tuning packages for the turbos. 
tuning ... need to .. resist ....
It's the potential for financially crippling bills that has prevented me from pulling the trigger so far. The tyres, petrol and standard maintenance I can make allowances and plan for.
There are a few potentials on PH, AT and ebay at the moment, most are hundreds of miles away.
Adam B said:
The turbo (996/997) I would run without a warranty, the n/a I wouldn't
Get the daddy
You hear this quite a lot but I've never really understood the logic. Both have the potential to cost you big time if something goes wrong. And while the 996 Turbo may not have the same potential issues as the 997 there is more to go wrong (turbos) and it will always be the older car.Get the daddy
I'd vote for the 997. If you boil it right down the only thing the 996 Turbo has going for it is that it is faster. But the reality is that both are fast enough. The 996 isn't a pretty 911 on the outside and is a real shocker on the inside. 997.
I can't compare it to a 997 c2, but I've had a 996t and now have a 997 c4s, which is probably a better comparison as both are wide body four wheel drives so you're comparing NA vs turbo and 996 vs 997 update.
One thing for sure the 996t is seriously real word quick, it was by far the easiest fast car I've ever driven, ( I do get to drive a few super cars for work ) so easy in fact two things were very likely. One, I was going to run out luck and get a speeding ticket, two run out of luck in terms of physics, by taking too big of risk as you get used to a car that will dispense a line of traffic in no time at all even with insufficient sight lines. Yes I know you can moderate the throttle but I'll go back to say it's all too easy to get carried away.
So it was a great car, looked great from some angles, seal grey, I even added the carbon ceramic brakes as I didn't think the standards were up to much. So stopped great too. But for some reason I never gelled with the car, it always seems so clinical, it never was exciting unless traveling at warp speed, and from some angles I never liked its looks, the front splitter is a prime example as the way it's shaped made the front look as if it droops down, the 996 c4s gets a better looking splitter IMO. I never liked the rear spoiler or the big scoops in the wings, and I fully understand why they're there, just fussy I guess but it was the reliability that drove me to the turbo otherwise I would have bought a 996 c4s. The turbo is though a very quiet car, and even with a sports exhaust never sounds as good as the NA flat six.
So forwards a couple of years I now have a 997 c4s, in guards red, lovely car and with PSE so sounds glorious. I prefer the looks, subjective yes I know, but the plain rear wings in WB form just look spot on, the headlights are also a big factor and general styling of the 997 I prefer over the 996, I've only had it for just about a month but the overall quality of the car seems a step up over the 996, the main difference for me is the way it sounds and drives, it's somehow more engaging than the turbo and brings with it a sense of occasion, working the engine and listening to the exhaust howl really does it for me. The interior is slightly nicer, but the PCM sat nav is still rubbish, but the trip function is handy, both need an auxiliary device to play an iPod so not exactly a modern car by any standards.
The turbo was slightly worse on fuel, and slightly more to service but not massively, you need to try them for yourself, every one needs to scratch the quick car itch and the turbo is a great car to do it with, but IMO slightly too clinical.
Both cars need a good warranty though, with a decent warranty in place who cares if it's metzger or not.
One thing for sure the 996t is seriously real word quick, it was by far the easiest fast car I've ever driven, ( I do get to drive a few super cars for work ) so easy in fact two things were very likely. One, I was going to run out luck and get a speeding ticket, two run out of luck in terms of physics, by taking too big of risk as you get used to a car that will dispense a line of traffic in no time at all even with insufficient sight lines. Yes I know you can moderate the throttle but I'll go back to say it's all too easy to get carried away.
So it was a great car, looked great from some angles, seal grey, I even added the carbon ceramic brakes as I didn't think the standards were up to much. So stopped great too. But for some reason I never gelled with the car, it always seems so clinical, it never was exciting unless traveling at warp speed, and from some angles I never liked its looks, the front splitter is a prime example as the way it's shaped made the front look as if it droops down, the 996 c4s gets a better looking splitter IMO. I never liked the rear spoiler or the big scoops in the wings, and I fully understand why they're there, just fussy I guess but it was the reliability that drove me to the turbo otherwise I would have bought a 996 c4s. The turbo is though a very quiet car, and even with a sports exhaust never sounds as good as the NA flat six.
So forwards a couple of years I now have a 997 c4s, in guards red, lovely car and with PSE so sounds glorious. I prefer the looks, subjective yes I know, but the plain rear wings in WB form just look spot on, the headlights are also a big factor and general styling of the 997 I prefer over the 996, I've only had it for just about a month but the overall quality of the car seems a step up over the 996, the main difference for me is the way it sounds and drives, it's somehow more engaging than the turbo and brings with it a sense of occasion, working the engine and listening to the exhaust howl really does it for me. The interior is slightly nicer, but the PCM sat nav is still rubbish, but the trip function is handy, both need an auxiliary device to play an iPod so not exactly a modern car by any standards.
The turbo was slightly worse on fuel, and slightly more to service but not massively, you need to try them for yourself, every one needs to scratch the quick car itch and the turbo is a great car to do it with, but IMO slightly too clinical.
Both cars need a good warranty though, with a decent warranty in place who cares if it's metzger or not.
What Porkster says about the 6T is probably the most oft-repeated criticism of it. Whilst I wouldn't use the word clinical, I'd agree with everything else: it is so unbelievably competent and difficult to fluster that on public roads you are in licence losing territory well before you feel that you have it by the scruff of the neck.
As I've said before, this amazing competence and composure in all weathers is the reason that many love it, but also the reason that many others feel it isn't quite "it".
And the exhaust note isn't great, that's certainly true!
As I've said before, this amazing competence and composure in all weathers is the reason that many love it, but also the reason that many others feel it isn't quite "it".
And the exhaust note isn't great, that's certainly true!
The exhaust note is an easy change.
I have a DMS system sounds lovely and purposeful on boost and not tiresome on a run.
In terms of losing your license well that depends on your right foot, i can lose my license in my F10 BMW.
My car isn't clinical either but yes in standard guise i agree they can be.
A map a pipe and a few suspension tweaks maybe and you have a car capable of 200 mph sounds great handles well won't kill you like a GT2 for not a lot of money, nothing not too like IMO
I sold my GT3 to release some cash (never used either) to get into something more practical that i could use more in all weathers and i can honestly say i don't regret it. 550bhp DMS tuned
I have a DMS system sounds lovely and purposeful on boost and not tiresome on a run.
In terms of losing your license well that depends on your right foot, i can lose my license in my F10 BMW.
My car isn't clinical either but yes in standard guise i agree they can be.
A map a pipe and a few suspension tweaks maybe and you have a car capable of 200 mph sounds great handles well won't kill you like a GT2 for not a lot of money, nothing not too like IMO
I sold my GT3 to release some cash (never used either) to get into something more practical that i could use more in all weathers and i can honestly say i don't regret it. 550bhp DMS tuned
Greg66 said:
GregorFuk said:
If you boil it right down the only thing the 996 Turbo has going for it is that it is faster.
Err, and the Mezger engine in the turbo, which comes with substantially fewer worries. and it has the additional complexity of two turbos plus all the extra plumbing that goes with them. I'm well awair that the Gen 1 non Mezger engines have their issues but if a turbo pops on your TT it's not going to be cheap either. There is plenty to go wrong with these cars outside the obvious that gets regurgitated endlessly on Pistonheads. So like I said, I'd not run either without a warranty.
Edited by GregorFuk on Sunday 27th July 11:13
Edited by GregorFuk on Sunday 27th July 11:13
I'd sooner have a couple of turbo's than an engine give up.
The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
Crimp a Length! said:
The exhaust note is an easy change.
I have a DMS system sounds lovely and purposeful on boost and not tiresome on a run.
In terms of losing your license well that depends on your right foot, i can lose my license in my F10 BMW.
My car isn't clinical either but yes in standard guise i agree they can be.
A map a pipe and a few suspension tweaks maybe and you have a car capable of 200 mph sounds great handles well won't kill you like a GT2 for not a lot of money, nothing not too like IMO
I sold my GT3 to release some cash (never used either) to get into something more practical that i could use more in all weathers and i can honestly say i don't regret it. 550bhp DMS tuned
Now that looks the dogs danglies CrimpI have a DMS system sounds lovely and purposeful on boost and not tiresome on a run.
In terms of losing your license well that depends on your right foot, i can lose my license in my F10 BMW.
My car isn't clinical either but yes in standard guise i agree they can be.
A map a pipe and a few suspension tweaks maybe and you have a car capable of 200 mph sounds great handles well won't kill you like a GT2 for not a lot of money, nothing not too like IMO
I sold my GT3 to release some cash (never used either) to get into something more practical that i could use more in all weathers and i can honestly say i don't regret it. 550bhp DMS tuned
ClassicCarMad said:
I'd sooner have a couple of turbo's than an engine give up.
The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
News flash. Porsche churn both out by the thousand. They are both 'run of the mill' so to speak.The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
My original point was about warranties. Both have the potential for big bills, the logic that a 996 TT will have no issues and is is safe to run without a warranty is a flawed one.
GregorFuk said:
ClassicCarMad said:
I'd sooner have a couple of turbo's than an engine give up.
The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
News flash. Porsche churn both out by the thousand. They are both 'run of the mill' so to speak.The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
My original point was about warranties. Both have the potential for big bills, the logic that a 996 TT will have no issues and is is safe to run without a warranty is a flawed one.
The Mezger engine is a proven classic engine & a far better proposition than the chocolate 997 Carrera engine, if you think it isn't then you are obviously slightly naive in the Porsche world.
GregorFuk said:
ClassicCarMad said:
I'd sooner have a couple of turbo's than an engine give up.
The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
News flash. Porsche churn both out by the thousand. They are both 'run of the mill' so to speak.The Turbo with the Metzger engine is a far better proposition short and long-term.
Its a 911 turbo for Christ sake not a Carrera, i laugh at comparisons like these chalk and cheese.
996 Turbo every day of the week, get a PPI and enjoy the bargain of the century doubt they will be this cheap forever, yet the 997 C2S will always be a run of the mill 911 long-term
My original point was about warranties. Both have the potential for big bills, the logic that a 996 TT will have no issues and is is safe to run without a warranty is a flawed one.
I've had 12 911's...................none with warranties.
News Flash Updated
If i bought a water-cooled Carrera, i'd have a warranty without a doubt.
fstorm said:
monthefish said:
I bought a 2002 turbo in 2011. My only regret was selling it and, perhaps, not buying it sooner. I LOVED mine.
There were various model year upgrades since its intro in 2000, with 2002 bringing the most comprehensive of changes (I'll see if I can dig out my list of what happened when), so if possible go for a 2002 or later car, but it is more important to find a 'good' car (well maintained) rather than a 'later' car.
ETA:
Very useful Mr Fish, what did you replaced your 996T with ?There were various model year upgrades since its intro in 2000, with 2002 bringing the most comprehensive of changes (I'll see if I can dig out my list of what happened when), so if possible go for a 2002 or later car, but it is more important to find a 'good' car (well maintained) rather than a 'later' car.
ETA:
monthefish said:
The 996 Turbo was unveilled in late 1999 for 2000 model year.
The 2001 models gained electric switches to open the front and rear lids, and improved interior illumination.
2002 models were the so-called facelift cars: glovebox, twin cup-holders, soft-touch plastics, better ventilation, Bose sound system, an auto-dim interior mirror and a rain sensor. Also, X50 power upgrade became an option.
All nice things to have if possible, but not at the expense of an older/better car if it was a choice between the 2.
The 2001 models gained electric switches to open the front and rear lids, and improved interior illumination.
2002 models were the so-called facelift cars: glovebox, twin cup-holders, soft-touch plastics, better ventilation, Bose sound system, an auto-dim interior mirror and a rain sensor. Also, X50 power upgrade became an option.
All nice things to have if possible, but not at the expense of an older/better car if it was a choice between the 2.
I'm after a Gallardo but that will be twice the price to get into even the earliest of cars.
...which will be less practical.
...and more expensive to run.
...and it won't be any faster.
...and it won't handle any better.
It will sound better, and maybe look a bit better, although (like crimpy's car above) my 996t had the GT2 kit which makes them one of the best looking cars to ever hit the roads to my eye.
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