Why are Porsche not seen as super cars ?
Discussion
I think that the terms Super Car and a Performance car are not one and the same. Certainly the 'Super Cars' that I have ( and often had the misfortune ) to have driven were in the main designed from a form over function standpoint. Porsches are ( or have been before the twerps that sit on ever burgeoning design committees got involved) designed from a function over form basis.
This concept is generally lost on buyers of super cars who, in the main seem more concerned visual rather than driving experiences
This concept is generally lost on buyers of super cars who, in the main seem more concerned visual rather than driving experiences
bigunit00 said:
I thought you had a nice 348. Did you change to a 360? Which do you prefer?
I had about a year between the two, and bought the 360 in November last year.Comparison is a difficult one. As a purely occasional weekend car, I did like the 348. Mine was the proper Ferrari colour, and although I think they're beginning to look their age a bit (they're fairly angular, particularly next to a 355) it did look like a proper Ferrari. It drove like a go cart, and was a lovely raw car. Great fun, but the downside was that it was 20 years old - and although it didn't have any serious problems in the time I had it, it did seem to need me to fix something minor about once a month.
The 360 takes some time go get used to. When I was taken out for a testdrive in mine, I was surprised how quiet it was. If you take it to the shops, it really could be any modern car - which I guess is something it shares with the 996 turbo. On the other hand, it looks the part - a couple of friends have commented that "this one looks like a proper supercar", and it does have a bit of a split personality. Drive it hard, and it screams - and I took it to the supercar event in June for both days, and it amazed me on the track. It was like a totally different car.
I like the fact that the 360 feels like it's build properly, and doesn't seem to need constant tweaking. So overall, I probably prefer it - especially given that the difference in price was only about £12k. Having said that - I do miss the 348 a bit, and if I could have both I would.
mollytherocker said:
The 911 Turbo has blurred the lines between road car and supercar for 40 years and probably has the ultimate mix of supercar and every day usability.
Very well put- this is why I chose a 997 turbo, blistering performance on any surface, savage 0-60 acceleration better than many super cars yet it blends in so well, I can use it daily if needed and park it almost anywhere with no worries. Indie serviving is very reasonable and it's actually cheaper to insure than any of the AMG's I have owned.Still will attract a bit of attention but it's a more subtle, and subdued attention.
I think it's not considered a super car due to styling and exclusivity, certainly if you are talking about general opinion. I prefer the styling of a 911 to many super cars, but I have to admit it's not as eye catching as a 430 or Gallardo, can't compete with NA V8/V10 either sound wise so obviously it's not going to get the same reaction.
No one has mentioned McLaren (well other than the McLaren Mercedes). Where do these fit? They have exclusivity, performance and a price tag to match. It's not all about Italian styling.
Being relatively new to the Porsche scene I would agree with the people who talk about Porsches being too common to be a supercar. To the layman the difference in the models is subtle to see.
Looks are important as well, as a kid I had the poster of the Countach on my wall, I wouldn't have even given a 911 a second look.
Being relatively new to the Porsche scene I would agree with the people who talk about Porsches being too common to be a supercar. To the layman the difference in the models is subtle to see.
Looks are important as well, as a kid I had the poster of the Countach on my wall, I wouldn't have even given a 911 a second look.
AndrewIC said:
Perhaps it's a German thing, if you think back, they haven't ever really made a supercar apart from the Carrera GT and 959 (which some people would say never was one even though performance wise it certainly was).
From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
It's odd as Germans are considered to have created the idea with 300SL.From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
Also there is BMW M1,i8, Audi R8,Merc SLS,Apollo Gumpert.
Edited by tali1 on Saturday 2nd August 17:37
I think a lot of it is about launch hype and being radically different to anything before. The Zonda comes along and people go "wow...what the hell is that?" Ditto McMerc SLR...looked and sounded completely bonkers. When the MP412C came out it was lambasted for being too bland and ordinary, despite incredible driving dynamics, yet it was a brand new car.
To most people, the 911 has looked the same for their entire lives no matter how old they are...that familiar silhouette has gone from being pushed round on the carpet to bedroom wall poster to being seen 5 times a day on the commute to work. Supercars are meant to create feelings of awe, respect and desire, and when Disney come up with this as a cute cuddly car character (that is also an extremely accurate representation) that the next generation of PHers will grow up with on their nursery walls, it will never, ever be a supercar, no matter how good it is.
And for the reasons mentioned before about taste and target market, I'm just fine with that!
To most people, the 911 has looked the same for their entire lives no matter how old they are...that familiar silhouette has gone from being pushed round on the carpet to bedroom wall poster to being seen 5 times a day on the commute to work. Supercars are meant to create feelings of awe, respect and desire, and when Disney come up with this as a cute cuddly car character (that is also an extremely accurate representation) that the next generation of PHers will grow up with on their nursery walls, it will never, ever be a supercar, no matter how good it is.
And for the reasons mentioned before about taste and target market, I'm just fine with that!
tali1 said:
AndrewIC said:
Perhaps it's a German thing, if you think back, they haven't ever really made a supercar apart from the Carrera GT and 959 (which some people would say never was one even though performance wise it certainly was).
From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
It's odd as Germans are considered to have created the idea with 300SL.From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
Also there is BMW M1,i8, Audi R8,Merc SLS,Apollo Gumpert.
Edited by tali1 on Saturday 2nd August 17:37
AndrewIC said:
tali1 said:
AndrewIC said:
Perhaps it's a German thing, if you think back, they haven't ever really made a supercar apart from the Carrera GT and 959 (which some people would say never was one even though performance wise it certainly was).
From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
It's odd as Germans are considered to have created the idea with 300SL.From memory the SLR was mainly a McLaren effort.
Also there is BMW M1,i8, Audi R8,Merc SLS,Apollo Gumpert.
Edited by tali1 on Saturday 2nd August 17:37
Hold on -you not thinking of the "Bobby Ewing" one !
The Gull Wing Mercedes-Benz 300SL was the first car I chased down the street as a small boy. What a magnificent thing! My lifelong friend did the same we were so awestruck when we saw our first one together and wanted to get a closer look when it parked up. Mind you we were both twelve at the time in the mid-1950s.
No other car since has had that effect on me. Soon after that I had a ride in the then fairly new neighbour's MG Magnette Saloon of 1954. The neighbour was in the trade and had modified the MG so that it handled and flew by the standards of that time. That experience sewed the seeds of a lifelong enthusiasm for anything carrying the MG badge particularly those extremely elegant pre-WW2 MG saloons and tourers which were still about in those immediate post war years. To me all those were "super" cars ...
Few cars in the decades since impress. The XJ220 and McL 12c have done that "super" car effect on me somewhat in more recent years. The only Porsche with the stance and presence to have that "super" effect on me is the Panamera ~ so what do I know ...
No other car since has had that effect on me. Soon after that I had a ride in the then fairly new neighbour's MG Magnette Saloon of 1954. The neighbour was in the trade and had modified the MG so that it handled and flew by the standards of that time. That experience sewed the seeds of a lifelong enthusiasm for anything carrying the MG badge particularly those extremely elegant pre-WW2 MG saloons and tourers which were still about in those immediate post war years. To me all those were "super" cars ...
Few cars in the decades since impress. The XJ220 and McL 12c have done that "super" car effect on me somewhat in more recent years. The only Porsche with the stance and presence to have that "super" effect on me is the Panamera ~ so what do I know ...
Part of it is rarity and how it makes you feel when you see one...when I was growing up as a child in the 70s seeing a Ferrari was a real event, probably saw 4 a year and to me they were real supercars, as were 911 Turbos...Only time I saw a lamborghini was in my toptrumps, stuff of dreams and desire.
A day doesnt go by that I dont see any of the above on the road now.
To push the comparison even further...I think it was Simon Kidston who in a recent issue of "Octane" wrote words to the effect "that when you drive the La Ferrari you truly feel that you're driving a £1m car...but when you drive the Veyron you feel you're driving a £5m car!"
Attention grabbing looks, obvious impracticality, wild sound, exotic mechanical specification, relative rarity & massive price tag - these are the fundamental hallmarks of the modern "supercar" as it's commonly understood by non-enthusuasts.
It's monument to hedonism & conspicious consumption. It's an exercise in parading one's wealth & decadence.
Porsche almost implicitly see these characteristcs as vices to be avoided and in so doing generally build a vehicle which sits outside the common conception of a "supercar."
Attention grabbing looks, obvious impracticality, wild sound, exotic mechanical specification, relative rarity & massive price tag - these are the fundamental hallmarks of the modern "supercar" as it's commonly understood by non-enthusuasts.
It's monument to hedonism & conspicious consumption. It's an exercise in parading one's wealth & decadence.
Porsche almost implicitly see these characteristcs as vices to be avoided and in so doing generally build a vehicle which sits outside the common conception of a "supercar."
Could it be the price? For example Porsche have typically always had an entry level car, be it a 914, 924 or Boxster. Ferrari, Lamborghini only have cars that cost the money that wealthy people have, the only entry level Ferrari was branded Dino. This has a impact on exclusivity as the market segment for a Porsche is much bigger. I suppose the true test - Is the Audi R8 a super car in the same breath as a Ferrari?
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