Why are Porsche not seen as super cars ?
Discussion
isaldiri said:
av185 said:
Audi is seen by many as a brand only slightly better than white goods I.e. similar to BMW and Merc all of who lost their 'premium' brand status many years back....
that's just a bit rich given the cayenne/macan/panamera nonsense that PAG are incessantly churning out in ever greater numbers.Yes its interesting but getting back to the OPs question I think Porsche have to date missed out somewhat on their surefire potential supercar captive market by only now putting the 988 flat eight into play for 2017 as a direct competitor to the 458 facelift and 650s....this will clearly bridge the 991 TTs and 918 hypercar performance gap and also likely offer even more practicality and usability than the current wonderful 458......
MGJohn said:
Not quite seen that way.
Both Mercedes-Benz and BMW made a decision to enter the volume sectors of the car market over two decades ago. Both have been very successful decisions. Indeed, in my neck of the woods the next car you see is likely to be a BMW or Mercedes rather than a Ford or Vauxhall as was usually the case two decades ago.
To do this, some things had to change and there is evidence that build quality has suffered. Not based on what I read or hear on the web or in the Motoring Mags and elsewhere, but by speaking to my friendly and very helpful MoT tester when testing one of my cars and a few owners of such cars.
There are still a few myths alive and well within UK car consumer circles. Here I do not only have in mind the well known "It's a Rover mate, they all do that"...
For years my friendly new Porsche driving neighbour has castigated me on my choice of cars. Always going on about German engineering and build quality. He does not do that now since his Boxster left him stranded on the hard shoulder of the nearby M5. That Boxster cost more to repair than my new MG ZS did on the road.
He's guilty of another myth. When he asked how my still fairly new MG was going, I told him the family had just returned from touring mainland Europe in it where my son casually let slip cruising it well into three figures and it never missed a beat. His reply.
"That's Honda engine reliability for you John"
...
Another widespread myth.
On more than one occasion I have viewed a used Rover described by the vendor as having the powerful and reliable Honda engine. On the phone, I mentioned that if his petrol turbo Rover has a Honda engine, I am not interested in purchasing it.
"It must be a Honda engine, it's so reliable and powerful!"
Of course it did not and I bought both cars ..
I also informed the vendor that Honda put Rover's fine L Series Diesel engine in their Diesel Accord.
To this day, I'd bet a few quid both those vendors believe their cars did have Honda engines and I was mistaken.
Lost count of the times I've seen Rovers for sale with a Honda engines ... erroneously described.
Funny old game folks and cars ...
On the flip side I bought an MGF brand new after all the pre-release hype surrounding it in british motoring mags. Both Mercedes-Benz and BMW made a decision to enter the volume sectors of the car market over two decades ago. Both have been very successful decisions. Indeed, in my neck of the woods the next car you see is likely to be a BMW or Mercedes rather than a Ford or Vauxhall as was usually the case two decades ago.
To do this, some things had to change and there is evidence that build quality has suffered. Not based on what I read or hear on the web or in the Motoring Mags and elsewhere, but by speaking to my friendly and very helpful MoT tester when testing one of my cars and a few owners of such cars.
There are still a few myths alive and well within UK car consumer circles. Here I do not only have in mind the well known "It's a Rover mate, they all do that"...
For years my friendly new Porsche driving neighbour has castigated me on my choice of cars. Always going on about German engineering and build quality. He does not do that now since his Boxster left him stranded on the hard shoulder of the nearby M5. That Boxster cost more to repair than my new MG ZS did on the road.
He's guilty of another myth. When he asked how my still fairly new MG was going, I told him the family had just returned from touring mainland Europe in it where my son casually let slip cruising it well into three figures and it never missed a beat. His reply.
"That's Honda engine reliability for you John"
...
Another widespread myth.
On more than one occasion I have viewed a used Rover described by the vendor as having the powerful and reliable Honda engine. On the phone, I mentioned that if his petrol turbo Rover has a Honda engine, I am not interested in purchasing it.
"It must be a Honda engine, it's so reliable and powerful!"
Of course it did not and I bought both cars ..
I also informed the vendor that Honda put Rover's fine L Series Diesel engine in their Diesel Accord.
To this day, I'd bet a few quid both those vendors believe their cars did have Honda engines and I was mistaken.
Lost count of the times I've seen Rovers for sale with a Honda engines ... erroneously described.
Funny old game folks and cars ...
In the first year it spent months in the garage with many, many problems. Head gasket going pop, engine brackets breaking, 3 new stereos, fuel pump self destructing, the windscreen cracking whilst driving along the road at 30 mph (design issue apparently), the list goes one.
Every year after that for the next 4 years it needed a new head gasket and various other things fixing at a cost of around £1500 a year. I was initially sold it as a "sports car" and when I kept taking it back they said "you really shouldnt drive it hard, its not a sports car".
Whilst some of the issues were down to the dealers incompetence as I once got a 2k estimate and told the car would basically blow up if i did another 5 miles in it and needed fixing immediately which turned out to be nonsense, (took it to Nottingham (1.5 hours away) to SP Performance who told me it was nonsense and fixed the issue for 120 notes and rung my dealer to give them serious grief) the vast majority of issues were related to dreadful build quality.
In fact I tried very hard to dissuade anybody from buying one after that and a couple of friends did regardless and bought the later TF model brand new - they all sold them within 2 years citing exactly the same sorts of issues.
I finally chopped it in for a brand new K20 Civic Type R which never missed a beat, didnt require stacks of oil, new head gasket etc every year, in fact I never topped it with water or oil even once, gave me infinitely better performance and cost me less to service.
4.5 years later I chopped in the Type R for the 996 which has done triple the mileage of either of those cars and has cost me even less to run than either.
Mr Ping said:
Every year after that for the next 4 years it needed a new head gasket and various other things fixing at a cost of around £1500 a year. I was initially sold it as a "sports car" and when I kept taking it back they said "you really shouldnt drive it hard, its not a sports car".
Every year after that. Pro-repair incompetence must be the "failures" there. Those need a kick up the jacksee until it bleeds.
Mr Ping said:
Whilst some of the issues were down to the dealers incompetence as I once got a 2k estimate and told the car would basically blow up if i did another 5 miles in it and needed fixing immediately which turned out to be nonsense,
Mine dont and those I've fixed do not either. All still running strong and reliably in the family or with friends.
There again, perhaps it's mere coincidence or simply bad luck so called Cylinder Head Gasket "failures" immediately following simple routine pro-servicing involving the cooling system such as anti-freeze renewal.
My MGF showing 120,000 plus miles still runs good and strong.
"Ah but it will go John, well known fact. And your ZS... wait and see".
Still waiting,
EDIT to add @ 13:36
The only Porsche I regard as super is the Panamera.
So there ...
Edited by MGJohn on Thursday 7th August 13:36
MGJohn said:
Four years on the trot!! Ah, you party sussed it. Party because I suspect pro-incompetence played the major part here. I have replaced the CHG on a number of cars pros had expensively failed to rectify first time around. In each case the cause of the so called failures were not identified and rectified so repeats soon followed. Pro get out cause as always... "They all do that mate".
Mine dont and those I've fixed do not either. All still running strong and reliably in the family or with friends.
There again, perhaps it's mere coincidence or simply bad luck so called Cylinder Head Gasket "failures" immediately following simple routine pro-servicing involving the cooling system such as anti-freeze renewal.
My MGF showing 120,000 plus miles still runs good and strong.
"Ah but it will go John, well known fact. And your ZS... wait and see".
Still waiting,
EDIT to add @ 13:36
The only Porsche I regard as super is the Panamera.
So there ...
Ha Mine dont and those I've fixed do not either. All still running strong and reliably in the family or with friends.
There again, perhaps it's mere coincidence or simply bad luck so called Cylinder Head Gasket "failures" immediately following simple routine pro-servicing involving the cooling system such as anti-freeze renewal.
My MGF showing 120,000 plus miles still runs good and strong.
"Ah but it will go John, well known fact. And your ZS... wait and see".
Still waiting,
EDIT to add @ 13:36
The only Porsche I regard as super is the Panamera.
So there ...
Edited by MGJohn on Thursday 7th August 13:36
Well at one place incompetence and daylight robbery were definitely the order of the day (they shut down very shortly afterwards!) but when the head gasket issues occurred across 3 different dealerships and affected my friends who bought them (and got mentioned a lot in motoring publications) I figured it must be down to some crap design or components
I also assumed this being why vectras, land rovers and elise mk1's suffered head gasket issues too.
Such a shame as I had such good fun in the car otherwise but I definitely wish I had that extra bit of cash to have bought an MX5 instead (with the same options they proved dearer)
Panamera being super eh....Im starting to like them quite a lot but Super might be a strong term!
I love my 911, it's utterly and completely brilliant.
It's not a "super car" though, thank god, if it was i wouldn't be able to drive it to work every day, park it in the gym car park, go shopping in it, take the kids out for the day....
I dont want a super car. I want a car that i can waft to work in in the winter, makes me giggle like a schoolgirl every now and then, doesnt break down (yet) and which gets the attention of passing milf. Porsche have totally nailed it IMO.
I'll replace it (eventually) with another one.
It's not a "super car" though, thank god, if it was i wouldn't be able to drive it to work every day, park it in the gym car park, go shopping in it, take the kids out for the day....
I dont want a super car. I want a car that i can waft to work in in the winter, makes me giggle like a schoolgirl every now and then, doesnt break down (yet) and which gets the attention of passing milf. Porsche have totally nailed it IMO.
I'll replace it (eventually) with another one.
When I was but a young boy I classed a Porsche as a Supercar (the 911 made the selection in Athene posters, so it had to be really).
You never saw them. You never saw Ferraris either and seeing any of them was cause for great excitement.
I preferred the look of Ferrari - they were (and still are) special. My mate preferred Porsche, perhaps for the engineering more than the looks.
Nowadays, I wouldn't class Porsche as a Supercar brand. There are simply too many. And they now have to make too many because they are no longer exclusive. Probably like BMW of the 80s. Premium.
It doesn't make it any less of a great car brand, and I love mine - but it's the passing Ferraris that still make me want to jump up and down, screaming and pointing like I did when I was 8 years old. Only the possibility of being sectioned keeps enables my inner restraint as a grown up.
So in short... Familiarity in my opinion.
You never saw them. You never saw Ferraris either and seeing any of them was cause for great excitement.
I preferred the look of Ferrari - they were (and still are) special. My mate preferred Porsche, perhaps for the engineering more than the looks.
Nowadays, I wouldn't class Porsche as a Supercar brand. There are simply too many. And they now have to make too many because they are no longer exclusive. Probably like BMW of the 80s. Premium.
It doesn't make it any less of a great car brand, and I love mine - but it's the passing Ferraris that still make me want to jump up and down, screaming and pointing like I did when I was 8 years old. Only the possibility of being sectioned keeps enables my inner restraint as a grown up.
So in short... Familiarity in my opinion.
av185 said:
mrdemon said:
Sports cars to me are 2 seater
any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
991 GT3 is 2 seater...........any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
Mr Ping said:
av185 said:
mrdemon said:
Sports cars to me are 2 seater
any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
991 GT3 is 2 seater...........any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
av185 said:
Mr Ping said:
av185 said:
mrdemon said:
Sports cars to me are 2 seater
any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
991 GT3 is 2 seater...........any more seats and it's a GT car or a mid life crisis car as you now have the money but have kids as well ....
911 \GTR etc all GT cars now
Sports cars are Caymans and Boxsters, Lotus , Noble etc
Mr Ping said:
Ha
Well at one place incompetence and daylight robbery were definitely the order of the day (they shut down very shortly afterwards!) but when the head gasket issues occurred across 3 different dealerships and affected my friends who bought them (and got mentioned a lot in motoring publications) I figured it must be down to some crap design or components
I also assumed this being why vectras, land rovers and elise mk1's suffered head gasket issues too.
I can assure you that pro-incompetence is far more widespread than that. It is not a recent phenomenon either. Well at one place incompetence and daylight robbery were definitely the order of the day (they shut down very shortly afterwards!) but when the head gasket issues occurred across 3 different dealerships and affected my friends who bought them (and got mentioned a lot in motoring publications) I figured it must be down to some crap design or components
I also assumed this being why vectras, land rovers and elise mk1's suffered head gasket issues too.
My evidence is not what I see on the TV in consumer type programmes, or the motoring mags or even dahn the pub word of mouth, I speak from my own personal experiences. Plus, those of work colleagues, friends and relatives etc many of which I have advised and helped during fifty years or car ownership.
You ever heard about new cars being driven away on day one and a wheel or to going AWOL soon after ? Seen that with my own eyes! So much for Pre Delivery Insopections [ PDIs. ]
When I picked up my new MG ZS on day one, I told the sales exec that I always lift the bonnet and make a few basic checks before driving away. His reply advised why waste time it has had its PDI.
Glad I did. The Coolant Expansion Bottle had been filled completely leaving no air gap at all for ... EXPANSION. I was about to drive the 100 miles plus up to London. Without my check and adjusted coolant level, perfect scenario for the well known "They all do that" myth. They don't all do that. They always do if someone 'fails'.
Twenty years previously, again day one with a new MG, I did drive up to London without doing any checks. Parked up in London, I was alerted by a neighbour that there was a large pool of green liquid under my brand new car. Lifted the bonnet to reveal that the bottom hose had eased off shortly after arrival from heat sink build up additional pressure on the recently switched off hot engine. That extra pressure was sufficient to push the hose off the radiator stub. The Jubilee style fastener had not been tighten properly or maybe loosened off deliberately or for some other reason. I topped it up with fresh coolant after fastening the clip properly and bled the system. The car went on to complete well over 100,000 miles over the next fifteen years when it started to fall apart at the seams from corrosion. That car was not rubbish. Those entrusted to its well being were and many often still are.
Those experiences and those previously convinced me to learn how to care for my own cars, even new ones which have never been pro-serviced, only by me. Maybe that's the reason all my cars have and continue to be extremely reliable for years of ownership.
There again, just maybe it IS Rocket Science and I have merely been lucky ...
Yeah, that's it ....
Having only owned RS and GT3 Porsches I may not be a true representative to this topic , but having recently gone over to the "dark side " I see why it just is more of an event , sure I still race porsche but besides two models they are not supercars ........ maybe not a issue anyway..
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