Another question about N rated tyres

Another question about N rated tyres

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Discussion

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Nice try but no cigar.

The warranty refers to using Porsche parts but gives no definition of the term that it uses. Porsche do not make tyres, so I don't think they can sensibly be described as Porsche "parts" unless there is somewhere a stipulation that only x, y or z tyres be used (i.e. it is a circular argument).

The Owner's Manual (which the warranty sort of requires be followed, although it draws no distinction between guidance and rules) states as follows in relation to tyres:

"Tire replacements
If in doubt, contact your Porsche dealer.
Use only tire makes and types approved by
Porsche.
If you do not use a Porsche recommended
replacement tire, make sure that you
purchase your new tires from a reputable tire
dealer and that the dealer complies with all
manufacturers warnings for those tires.
Only tires with the same make and with the
same specification code (e.g. “N0”, “N1”...)
can be mounted.
Before mounting new tires, check with your
Porsche dealer about the current release
status.
Use tires with “ZR” quality standards. There
are currently no standards concerning tire
strength at speeds above 150 mph (240 km/h).
Tires should be replaced no less than on one axle
at the time.
Only tires of the same make and type must be
used. Mixed tires are not permissible."

It's about as ambiguous and even self-contradictory as can be imagined.

I would not fancy my chances in resisting a warranty claim on the basis that non-N-rated but otherwise pukka tyres had been used.

Orangecurry

7,399 posts

205 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
Mixed tires are not permissible.
hehe

hapless car owner said:
please Sir, may I have permission to make choices about the car I have bought from you?
Porsche said:
No - sit down boy and open your wallet to me.

jon-

16,497 posts

215 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Isn't it still the case that the N rating / warranty issues is only an issue with the extended warranty? As I understand, there are laws in place to stop such ridiculous demands from the manufacturers for the OE warranty.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yep. But in respect of the radiator, the original part is the only one that can be used and it is clear what part that is. There are always a bunch of tyres from which to choose and the only question is whether or not Porsche has in fact stipulated that only N-rated tyres may be used. In my view, it has not. The text is confused and even self-contradictory, but I cannot read the Owner's Manual as containing a prohibition on using non-N-rated tyres.

I think I'll have some fun with the next OPC that tells me that N-rated tyres are mandatory under the warranty.

thegoose

8,075 posts

209 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Despite what the warranty manual apparently says (according to the post above), our Michelin chap suggests different

jamiemcwhir said:
There are one or two Porsche's where the N number isn't the same all round. Specifically some GT2's ran an N1 front (235/35-19) and an N2 rears (325/30-19)
And again those instances will involve Porsche and us testing, and finding that that specific combination works just right.....
Later finishing his post:
jamiemcwhir said:
I remain happy to answer any questions...
I hope he will come back and answer some from the last couple of pages, although I appreciate it might be difficult to come up with credible responses. scratchchin

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
Orangecurry said:
And to clarify, as pointed out above, this whole issue isn't caused by Michelin, it's caused by Porsche, but Jamie telling us the N-rated tyres are 'different' doesn't help with issues 1) and 2) above.
If we tune it and it's an improvement on the car, and is in general better, then you could find it to be optimized. That doesn't preclude it being unsuitable on another model in the range.

Hence that's why some combinations are approved on more than one model.

As someone else has stated, we don't approve them Porsche do. End of..

I could write pages about the lack of PSS "N" approval on 911 variants, but please understand we have spend thousands of hours and even larger quantities of money on the project. It's not a case of us giving up, but time meant we had to move forwards and look at the face lifted 991



Edited by jamiemcwhir on Thursday 11th September 14:42

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
If there are specific questions guys, just ask..

I'm sorry my visits are infrequent, but I'm trying to squeeze it in to all the other stuff I do at the same time.. I will endevour to answer everything as quickly as possible

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
jamiemcwhir said:
If there are specific questions guys, just ask..

I'm sorry my visits are infrequent, but I'm trying to squeeze it in to all the other stuff I do at the same time.. I will endevour to answer everything as quickly as possible
I have asked this about 6 times

is the CGT front tyre a bespoke compound or an off the shelf tyre which works better on the CGT so has been given the N rating.

I need top get to the bottom of Porsche fitting these to the Caymans rear, if it's a bespoke compound tyre then not fit for purpose for a Cayman and you did state it's not approved or tested on a Cayman.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
jamiemcwhir said:
.. but please understand we have spend thousands of hours and even larger quantities of money on the project. It's not a case of us giving up, but time meant we had to move forwards and look at the face lifted 991 (due 2015)
rolleyes Sure.

I have a simple test for this kind of claim. If it were anything like true, Porsche would make a massive deal of it in marketing literature. They don't, because it doesn't happen.

thegoose

8,075 posts

209 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
jamiemcwhir said:
If there are specific questions guys, just ask..

I'm sorry my visits are infrequent, but I'm trying to squeeze it in to all the other stuff I do at the same time.. I will endevour to answer everything as quickly as possible
So, my first specific question is:

Why have Michelin UK produced the ad I showed, which promotes the tyres' contribution to a specific Porsche's performance using either a non-approved tyre If they're 18" wheels) or a non-approved size (if they're not 18" wheels) for the model they've chosen to promote it on?

If the answer is that the people putting it together didn't know any better (which I could believe) then please just say so, likewise if it's that they thought they'd get away with it as the vast majority of people wouldn't notice. Either way a straight answer would be welcome please. smile

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
Guys, we need to trip him up with a clever question!

WindyMiller67

426 posts

139 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
jamiemcwhir said:
I could write pages about the lack of PSS "N" approval on 911 variants, but please understand we have spend thousands of hours and even larger quantities of money on the project. It's not a case of us giving up, but time meant we had to move forwards and look at the face lifted 991 (due 2015)
As a business owner I understand the need to look forward to the new products, but you can't neglect the old products whilst they're still "in life". I believe the 997 variant has sold more units than any other, and so there is a PSS goldmine for Michelin with this variant alone.

Put an N0 on our PSSs sizes - PLEASE!

You can always tweak them later for the N1.

Iratus

2 posts

114 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
quotequote all
Dear All,

I am new to the forums, thank you for the great discussion.

jamiemcwhir, it is great that someone from Michelin is listening but I agree with many that the rationale in N homologation is found wanting. As a '11 Cayman owner here is my 2 cents on this matter:

- My car came with N0 and N1 Bridgestone tyres from the factory, and I have read others had similar experiences too so so much for the "matching" codes. In fact for countries like Turkey where tyres are quite difficult to source, even OPC may simply fit different series N tyres and for winter tyres they waiver the requirement altogether. My winter tyres are factory 18" size Sottozero Pirellis front and 265/35/18 Wintersport Pirellis rear, fronts N rated rears not. These were simply what could be found at that moment.

- Michelin apparently showcased PSS's on 997's in the Dubai launch, how about that? How come you guys are sabotaging your own homologation scheme?

- Finally, the US Michelin website lists non-homologated PSS's as a legitimate option for Cayman, please check for yourself (not sure whether the link will work though).
http://www.michelinman.com/team-michelin/results/2...

All this leads me to believe either 1) Porsche or Michelin or both are not keeping up with product homologation, if it has to be done at least do it properly; or 2) the whole thing is a scheme (or scam if you will) for captive retailing and planned obsolescence. In fact Porsche appears to be one of the biggest offenders when it comes to tyre sourcing, even in relatively new models.

P.S. Launching a new tyre homologation in September is also a terrible idea I am afraid, how about the majority of owners who change or upgrade in spring? How is it related to the facelifted 991 anyway?

Trev450

6,314 posts

171 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
quotequote all
Good first post.

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
WindyMiller67 said:
As a business owner I understand the need to look forward to the new products, but you can't neglect the old products whilst they're still "in life". I believe the 997 variant has sold more units than any other, and so there is a PSS goldmine for Michelin with this variant alone.

Put an N0 on our PSSs sizes - PLEASE!

You can always tweak them later for the N1.
Again, not through want of trying.
But the situation is that until it passes for the current car, they won't allow us approval for the old cars. It may hopefully be a case of the floodgates opening. Once the 991 FL hurdle is passed, then others follow.
Believe me in saying I know what you are saying is true, Its been our biggest project for years

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
Iratus said:
Dear All,

I am new to the forums, thank you for the great discussion.

jamiemcwhir, it is great that someone from Michelin is listening but I agree with many that the rationale in N homologation is found wanting. As a '11 Cayman owner here is my 2 cents on this matter:

- My car came with N0 and N1 Bridgestone tyres from the factory, and I have read others had similar experiences too so so much for the "matching" codes. In fact for countries like Turkey where tyres are quite difficult to source, even OPC may simply fit different series N tyres and for winter tyres they waiver the requirement altogether. My winter tyres are factory 18" size Sottozero Pirellis front and 265/35/18 Wintersport Pirellis rear, fronts N rated rears not. These were simply what could be found at that moment.

- Michelin apparently showcased PSS's on 997's in the Dubai launch, how about that? How come you guys are sabotaging your own homologation scheme?

- Finally, the US Michelin website lists non-homologated PSS's as a legitimate option for Cayman, please check for yourself (not sure whether the link will work though).
http://www.michelinman.com/team-michelin/results/2...

All this leads me to believe either 1) Porsche or Michelin or both are not keeping up with product homologation, if it has to be done at least do it properly; or 2) the whole thing is a scheme (or scam if you will) for captive retailing and planned obsolescence. In fact Porsche appears to be one of the biggest offenders when it comes to tyre sourcing, even in relatively new models.

P.S. Launching a new tyre homologation in September is also a terrible idea I am afraid, how about the majority of owners who change or upgrade in spring? How is it related to the facelifted 991 anyway?
Ok
When the product was launched in Dubai on 997, we were still very much "green light" for OE homologation. We made moulds and sizes for Porsche 911 variants. It was only after that that the products didn't overcome the approval

It's not planned obsolesecence. We do carry tyres forward when there is an OE approval, e.g. we still make PS2 "N" and PS2 is very much a discontinued product. There are agreements in place requiring tyre suppliers to guarantee a period of supply from car launch. Hence if we want to change the product during that period we have to get approval for the new product.

Whilst I agree with you that September isn't the best time, it's simply a case of all the pieces needing a period of time to fall into place. Hence it can't be March 2015.. We can't go quicker than we can go. Personally I'd rather have them in September 2015 than wait until March 2016

USA website. PSS is a legitimate option on all Porsches. It works, it's legal. It is simply not approved by Porsche (except on Panamera's and the Carrera GT). Hence the standpoint in the US is right. We sell in excess of 6000-7000 PSS Porsche sizes in Europe each year. So we know there are a fair few cars running them.

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
Guys, we need to trip him up with a clever question!
That's helpful..

All I am trying to do is give you up to date, full and genuine information. I understand your frustrations, but please don't take them out on me

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
please answer my question

jamiemcwhir

43 posts

122 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
I have asked this about 6 times

is the CGT front tyre a bespoke compound or an off the shelf tyre which works better on the CGT so has been given the N rating.

I need top get to the bottom of Porsche fitting these to the Caymans rear, if it's a bespoke compound tyre then not fit for purpose for a Cayman and you did state it's not approved or tested on a Cayman.
It hasn't been tested by us on a Cayman during development.

It is a specific fitment homolgated solely for the Carrera GT. My extract from my technical data file (in french) is below

"OE PORSCHE Carrera GT FRONT (REAR = 335/30 ZR 20 XL PSS N0) 100% Michelin - Remplace le CAI PS2 N2 = 505499"
Meaning it replaces the PS2 we used to have on a Carrera GT

Whilst it is N rated, it is ONLY N rated for the Carrera GT

Our advice would be to run a recommend "N" rated fitment. Or if you decide not to, a normal non "N" rated PSS all round. That will maintain the vehicle balance. Using this tyre on the rear with a standard PSS on the front will mean differneces in the specification between the tyres on your two axles. It will not be an "unsafe" fitment, but I would stick to the advice I have just given


Iratus

2 posts

114 months

Friday 5th September 2014
quotequote all
@jamiemcwhir

Thank you for the reply. I agree with you in that if we go non-N, we should do it all-around. This is what I plan to do come Spring 2015. In the US site 2 versions of 265/35/19 were listed and one was N0, the other MO. When I check the Turkish websites though I see we can order non-homologated rear tyres in OE sizes, could you please confirm?

Regarding brand -specific tyres, I know for some special applications that there can be some important changes. For the Elise's OE Yokohama tyres I remember reading that they are almost 2 kg lighter than the same size off-the-shelf tyre, but this is Lotus afterall so I doubt 99% of us will experience any dramatic changes in usual driving in normal conditions for any other homologations.