Another question about N rated tyres
Discussion
He hasn't answered my questions; he's just read-out the current recommendations.
Unless he's accidently confirmed that the tyres are not optimised, but generalised....?
But as a tyre expert at least he said this, which is one reason why I steer clear of most of the n-rated tyres, which are very very very old....
Unless he's accidently confirmed that the tyres are not optimised, but generalised....?
But as a tyre expert at least he said this, which is one reason why I steer clear of most of the n-rated tyres, which are very very very old....
jamiemcwhir said:
So, in most cases a tyre developed more recently will be perform better, as it's materials and technology will be more advanced. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.
thegoose said:
So, my first specific question is:
Why have Michelin UK produced the ad I showed, which promotes the tyres' contribution to a specific Porsche's performance using either a non-approved tyre If they're 18" wheels) or a non-approved size (if they're not 18" wheels) for the model they've chosen to promote it on?
If the answer is that the people putting it together didn't know any better (which I could believe) then please just say so, likewise if it's that they thought they'd get away with it as the vast majority of people wouldn't notice. Either way a straight answer would be welcome please.
I haven't been avoiding it, I'm just doing a lot day in day out.Why have Michelin UK produced the ad I showed, which promotes the tyres' contribution to a specific Porsche's performance using either a non-approved tyre If they're 18" wheels) or a non-approved size (if they're not 18" wheels) for the model they've chosen to promote it on?
If the answer is that the people putting it together didn't know any better (which I could believe) then please just say so, likewise if it's that they thought they'd get away with it as the vast majority of people wouldn't notice. Either way a straight answer would be welcome please.
This answer isn't corporate BS, it's an accurate and fair answer, so here goes.
Michelin Central (e.g. France) authorise and produce all the ads the individual countries produce. For all product lines, be it car, bike or truck. These ads are sent through to the countries for translation and any corrections. However, we don't really get the option to make major changes.
We have a separate comms department which doesn't always work hand in hand with technical or comms teams.
In this instance, I agree with you completely, that the ad is misleading as for the 997 Cup 2 in 18" we aren't offering an "N" rated tyre. So, although it's not something I would have produced, the lack of joined up thinking is clear. I would say that it wouldn't have been done intentionally, but could have been better. Equally we can't use an image of a manufacturers car without getting their express approval for the ad.
A separate point is that in our experience, the use of a track tyre for Porsches seems to see more non "n" rated options. (and I don't mean that as a "get out") I have seen track cars on Toyo 888's, slicks and various things in between. Hence maybe and just maybe we will see people try the PS Cup2 irregardless of "N" markings on tracks on certain 997/996 models.
Again, I'm sorry if you feel I've been avoiding the issue. Personally I'm glad we've launched some sizes in Cup2 whether or not they are N Rated. I'd rather people have the choice than wait and wait and wait incase an approval comes along.
Nurburgsingh said:
I have an easy question...
"If I were to fit a set of Non N rated PSS's on my GT3 would that have a dangerous effect on the driving stability"
No. However if your GT3 has run previously on a Cup tyre (which GT3 model do you have), the maximum level of lateral grip will be different as you are comparing track type tyres to road ones. The other differences would obviously be wet grip (PSS better than a Cup+/Cup2) and warm up characteristics. But as you would be running the same spec front and rear you wouldn't experience a significant shift in the car balance"If I were to fit a set of Non N rated PSS's on my GT3 would that have a dangerous effect on the driving stability"
I'd use an analogy.. but I'd only end up being crucified on here if I did!
Orangecurry.. can I answer some of your queries below..
Thanks for answering the question, but I imagine you are reading the list of current recommendations?
(well why is that surprising, as if that's the only "N" rated tyre we offer, I can't suggest any other "N" rated tyre, as well.. we don't have one..)
Do you know which model of car the above tyres were optimised/tuned/designed for? If, as suggested above, the optimisation somehow covers more than one model, then it isn't optimisation.
The real problem that faces owners falls into two areas:
1) warranty, and the lack of choice and availability
(Yes I agree, and again I am not trying to pass the buck, but the lack of approval for PSS has hit us quite hard, leaving a "hole" in the range and limiting choice for owners. So I am in total agreement)
2) as we are told only that N-rated is 'better' on every Porsche, with no specification to back that up, why wouldn't I choose a tyre that has been developed much more recently, as I agree with exactly what you said above, i.e.
jamiemcwhir said:
So, in most cases a tyre developed more recently will be perform better, as it's materials and technology will be more advanced. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.
And to clarify, as pointed out above, this whole issue isn't caused by Michelin, it's caused by Porsche, but Jamie telling us the N-rated tyres are 'different' doesn't help with issues 1) and 2) above.
One final point is to consider the way we test tyres, whether it's in motorsport or road tyre development. We will test variants and all the time narrow down the funnel. As part of this process, we will test current and future products, as you need a base/reference tyre. We may also examine any issues that materialise in development where a standard tyre, is not giving the results the manufacturer wants. E.g. wear, grip or any other criteria. Changes to the tyre to correct that will then lead to a retesting process.
So when we optimise the tyre for a particular model, it simply means it's performance is better than a reference tyre, meaning that the car performance/tyre performance is better.
So if we improved the standard tyre for one Porsche, and we try it on another Porsche, and it is also better than the reference point, then it is possible and probable that the tyre can and will be approved on a different model. Just because the car is slightly different doesn't mean that the tyre won't work
Please always remember, Michelin don't approve the tyres for Porsche (or any other manufacturer for that matter) it's the manufacturer of the car who does. If it passes their requirements for the approval it gets it.
So we've come full circle. Whether you agree with Porsche's stance on "N" rating or not, that's what we've got. Hope this answers some queries..
Thanks for answering the question, but I imagine you are reading the list of current recommendations?
(well why is that surprising, as if that's the only "N" rated tyre we offer, I can't suggest any other "N" rated tyre, as well.. we don't have one..)
Do you know which model of car the above tyres were optimised/tuned/designed for? If, as suggested above, the optimisation somehow covers more than one model, then it isn't optimisation.
The real problem that faces owners falls into two areas:
1) warranty, and the lack of choice and availability
(Yes I agree, and again I am not trying to pass the buck, but the lack of approval for PSS has hit us quite hard, leaving a "hole" in the range and limiting choice for owners. So I am in total agreement)
2) as we are told only that N-rated is 'better' on every Porsche, with no specification to back that up, why wouldn't I choose a tyre that has been developed much more recently, as I agree with exactly what you said above, i.e.
jamiemcwhir said:
So, in most cases a tyre developed more recently will be perform better, as it's materials and technology will be more advanced. I'm not pretending that the PS2 "N" will be better than the PSS on your car, as it won't be. But the PSS isn't "N" rated.
And to clarify, as pointed out above, this whole issue isn't caused by Michelin, it's caused by Porsche, but Jamie telling us the N-rated tyres are 'different' doesn't help with issues 1) and 2) above.
One final point is to consider the way we test tyres, whether it's in motorsport or road tyre development. We will test variants and all the time narrow down the funnel. As part of this process, we will test current and future products, as you need a base/reference tyre. We may also examine any issues that materialise in development where a standard tyre, is not giving the results the manufacturer wants. E.g. wear, grip or any other criteria. Changes to the tyre to correct that will then lead to a retesting process.
So when we optimise the tyre for a particular model, it simply means it's performance is better than a reference tyre, meaning that the car performance/tyre performance is better.
So if we improved the standard tyre for one Porsche, and we try it on another Porsche, and it is also better than the reference point, then it is possible and probable that the tyre can and will be approved on a different model. Just because the car is slightly different doesn't mean that the tyre won't work
Please always remember, Michelin don't approve the tyres for Porsche (or any other manufacturer for that matter) it's the manufacturer of the car who does. If it passes their requirements for the approval it gets it.
So we've come full circle. Whether you agree with Porsche's stance on "N" rating or not, that's what we've got. Hope this answers some queries..
jamiemcwhir said:
Nurburgsingh said:
I have an easy question...
"If I were to fit a set of Non N rated PSS's on my GT3 would that have a dangerous effect on the driving stability"
No. However if your GT3 has run previously on a Cup tyre (which GT3 model do you have), the maximum level of lateral grip will be different as you are comparing track type tyres to road ones. The other differences would obviously be wet grip (PSS better than a Cup+/Cup2) and warm up characteristics. But as you would be running the same spec front and rear you wouldn't experience a significant shift in the car balance"If I were to fit a set of Non N rated PSS's on my GT3 would that have a dangerous effect on the driving stability"
I'd use an analogy.. but I'd only end up being crucified on here if I did!
Thank you for answering the question.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
All I would add to that is tyre technology, not only the materials but more importantly production techniques, have changed significantly since then (968/993 period). Hence some of the changes can be quite specific and finer than we could have done before. I've been with Michelin off and on since 1997, and what we can make and use has changed massively
Ok.
With older generations of tyres, e.g. PS2 and Cup/Cup+. We didn't manufacture them in the same way as we manufacture Pilot Super Sport and PS Cup2
Therefore, smaller changes to older generations of tyres were more difficult to do primarily in compounding.
Construction/carcass changes don't tend to be to one area (unless for fatigue)
What I was trying to explain was that PS2/PS Cup changes could have worked across more than one model, as you state a more "generic" specific tuning.
However using the example I've been quizzed the most about on here, e.g. Cayman and Carrera GT, as thats a Pilot Super Sport, it's possible to do more "fine" changes to it than would have been the case with a PS2. Only as they use very different production techniques. AND I can't and won't discuss the way we make PSS in great details as it's commercially sensitive. Suffice to say it allows more discreet fine changes.
I hope that explains it without using the analogies you are all so unfond of
With older generations of tyres, e.g. PS2 and Cup/Cup+. We didn't manufacture them in the same way as we manufacture Pilot Super Sport and PS Cup2
Therefore, smaller changes to older generations of tyres were more difficult to do primarily in compounding.
Construction/carcass changes don't tend to be to one area (unless for fatigue)
What I was trying to explain was that PS2/PS Cup changes could have worked across more than one model, as you state a more "generic" specific tuning.
However using the example I've been quizzed the most about on here, e.g. Cayman and Carrera GT, as thats a Pilot Super Sport, it's possible to do more "fine" changes to it than would have been the case with a PS2. Only as they use very different production techniques. AND I can't and won't discuss the way we make PSS in great details as it's commercially sensitive. Suffice to say it allows more discreet fine changes.
I hope that explains it without using the analogies you are all so unfond of
so we are still better fitting non N spec tyres ie the PSS over the very old and dated N spec PS2 !
I have been running PSS since day 1 launch circa 2010 on a TTRS as it happens , then on a BMW V8 and now on my Cayman, I say screw N spec it's outdated and old hat.
The PSS is now quite an old tyre, it's a shame you cannot buy them for a Cayman or 991 which is from 2005 till 2014 even 5 years after launch !!!!
how much time do people need ? 6 years 7 years ? not even available on a 991, Porsche flag ship car.
it just makes fitting the N PS2 seem stupid looking at the graph below, why would you ? and as that imo is the best N spec it a very poor show.
I have been running PSS since day 1 launch circa 2010 on a TTRS as it happens , then on a BMW V8 and now on my Cayman, I say screw N spec it's outdated and old hat.
The PSS is now quite an old tyre, it's a shame you cannot buy them for a Cayman or 991 which is from 2005 till 2014 even 5 years after launch !!!!
how much time do people need ? 6 years 7 years ? not even available on a 991, Porsche flag ship car.
it just makes fitting the N PS2 seem stupid looking at the graph below, why would you ? and as that imo is the best N spec it a very poor show.
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 11th September 15:59
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I swapped back to 19" wheels in order to sell my car (a 2008 Cayman) (far preferred the lack of grip ride and handling on 17" personally ). The previous owner had stuck non-N rated tyres on the rear. I found that nobody in the trade would take it without N-rated tyres on it (all pleading litigation risks). Just something to bare in mind...
). The previous owner had stuck non-N rated tyres on the rear. I found that nobody in the trade would take it without N-rated tyres on it (all pleading litigation risks). Just something to bare in mind... jcelee said:
I swapped back to 19" wheels in order to sell my car (a 2008 Cayman) (far preferred the lack of grip ride and handling on 17" personally ). The previous owner had stuck non-N rated tyres on the rear. I found that nobody in the trade would take it without N-rated tyres on it (all pleading litigation risks). Just something to bare in mind...
What do you think makes the most difference to grip and handling, 17" v 19" rims or N rated v non N rated tyres? ). The previous owner had stuck non-N rated tyres on the rear. I found that nobody in the trade would take it without N-rated tyres on it (all pleading litigation risks). Just something to bare in mind... I'm looking to buy a Spyder or Cayman R before the official GT4 reveal in spring (heard things...).
The "problem" I'm having is that the car I'm looking at has warranty until 2016 — which is perfect because that's when I'm looking to change — with N-spec tyres. I really want to run a set of PSS on it.
Has anybody managed to run non-spec tyres without losing the warranty or are there known cases of OPCs forgetting to check tyres?
(feel free to send me a private message if you don't want to post in public)
The "problem" I'm having is that the car I'm looking at has warranty until 2016 — which is perfect because that's when I'm looking to change — with N-spec tyres. I really want to run a set of PSS on it.
Has anybody managed to run non-spec tyres without losing the warranty or are there known cases of OPCs forgetting to check tyres?
(feel free to send me a private message if you don't want to post in public)
mrdemon said:
I run PSS and made claims, you just cannot renew your warranty.
PSS are awesome on the R ,
Why the Anti GT4 ? You expecting R prices to rise ?
Ok that's good news. I suppose I could always keep the N-spec tires around and put them on when its time to renew or sell...PSS are awesome on the R ,
Why the Anti GT4 ? You expecting R prices to rise ?
As for the GT4 and R prices... I don't necessarily expect them to rise but they are even less likely to go down in my eyes. And 2016/17 will be a nice year to upgrade to something special.
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