Another question about N rated tyres
Discussion
jamiemcwhir said:
Well
As the Technical Manager for Michelin in the UK, I will try and put this to bed once and for all, however this is highly unlikely...
Correct.As the Technical Manager for Michelin in the UK, I will try and put this to bed once and for all, however this is highly unlikely...
You haven't actually told us anything.
Publish the differences, so we can make an informed decision.
Telling us 'they are better' isn't what we want to hear, or of any use.
And to your point of 'nobody makes any money' yes they do
1) the OPC network: as the Porsche owner in warranty is pressurised into fitting N-rated tyres and pressurised into getting the OPC to fit them.
The OPC gets the mark-up on the tyres.
It's called a captive audience.
'Oh yes Sir of course you could get your N-rated tyres at Kwik-fit, but would they be the correct spec? The latest version? Old tyres that have been sitting on the shelves?' Service Manager smiles and shakes head
2) Michelin get their tyres specified as factory fit. Do Porsche not pay you for that?
Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 12th August 19:08
Funny, it's always the same vocal minority shouting very loudly against the N rated issue. This very kind man from Michelin has tried his utmost to explain the differences, yet you try to discredit his knowledge and wisdom. This is easy,if you don't buy into the N rated difference, don't buy the tyres, if you do buy into it, buy N rated. OP, make your own mind up what you prefer fitting and go shopping. This, as always, is a rather large can of worms.
Michelin have been known to post here before, then you ask a question and that's it they vanish again.
It' s not about being vocal, it' s about trying to get some one to say what NSpec is and not just toe the company line.
The cayman rear pss which was designed for the front CGT is a prime example of bulls
t. Which Porsche will happy feed you and charge you £100 per tyre more for, yep that's right £100 more per tyre !!
It' s not about being vocal, it' s about trying to get some one to say what NSpec is and not just toe the company line.
The cayman rear pss which was designed for the front CGT is a prime example of bulls
t. Which Porsche will happy feed you and charge you £100 per tyre more for, yep that's right £100 more per tyre !! Shurv said:
Funny, it's always the same vocal minority shouting very loudly against the N rated issue. This very kind man from Michelin has tried his utmost to explain the differences, yet you try to discredit his knowledge and wisdom.
You must be talking about some other post than mine, as I have made no attempt at discredit his knowledge or wisdom... did you really mean wisdom?I asked him to publish the differences, so we can make an informed decision. It's what I've always asked, vocally, otherwise he probably won't hear me.
mrdemon said:
It' s not about being vocal, it' s about trying to get some one to say what NSpec is and not just toe the company line.
Agreed, some specifics would be nice.mrdemon said:
The cayman rear pss which was designed for the front CGT is a prime example of bullst. Which Porsche will happy feed you and charge you £100 per tyre more for, yep that's right £100 more per tyre !!
That's the strange bit, as I said in my OP, the non N rated tyre is a few quid more expensive for my car in PSS than the N rated version which is why I wondered about the difference (obviouslyI would expect it to be a lot more at an OPC but I won't be going there for tyres t. Which Porsche will happy feed you and charge you £100 per tyre more for, yep that's right £100 more per tyre !! 
).Steve H said:
Hi Jamie, thanks for posting up a direct answer, you were never going to be over popular due to the general dislike of the system but I'm not here to shoot the messenger!
In my case I'm particularly interested in wear rates when compared with the non-N-rated PSS of the some size as the N rated that are available for my car are (as has been suggested) not really designed for it anyway. Would you be able to enlighten us on the difference in compounds and wear rates?
Steve, I cna give you a general answer, which is that if you compared two like for like tyres, one "N" marked one not, normally the "N" marked one would wear and last better on the car. But that's saying PS2 "N" vs. PS2. As for comparing across product families, much more difficult.In my case I'm particularly interested in wear rates when compared with the non-N-rated PSS of the some size as the N rated that are available for my car are (as has been suggested) not really designed for it anyway. Would you be able to enlighten us on the difference in compounds and wear rates?
There have been a few instances of us altering compounds to cope with specific demands of a car. Which may mean stiffening a compound to improve wear life under stress & lateral loads.
I know it's vague, but it's not the same 100% of the time.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not if the harder compound tire was required because of the loads put on the tire by the amount of weight carried by the Porsche's rear tires, and the alignment settings, all of which may result in a hotter running tire.My Porsches' tires are the hottest running tires of any car I have owned. They are sometimes almost too hot to touch and this is just after a highway run, not anything like a blast over a mountain pass road or after laps on a track.
The harder compound then helps the tire avoid the wear a softer compound tire would experience under the same operating conditions.
I dare say proper tires for these for these cars is more than just finding a tire that fits...
As for why the Michelin rep or any tire rep doesn't show up and argue this is Porsche has spoken. And no Porsche rep is going to show up and repeat what is printed in the owners manual and reinforced via various TSB and other official documentation from Porsche to its dealers which are tasked with customer service.
You can either elect to stay within the guidelines of Porsche regarding tire use, etc. or not.
If not, if you decide to go off the tire reservation and pick a non N-rated tire, you can pick any non N-rated tire you based on any criteria you want. You have elected to not follow the advice/recommendation of the only entity (Porsche) that has any authority on the matter of tires for these cars.
Which brings me to this: The only BS I find is from those who advocate non N-rated tires based on I guess their belief they know more about Porsches and Porsche tire requirements than, ummm, Porsche.
At the risk of adding some real world experience to this...
A good few years ago now, I witnessed an early 997 that after some spirited driving, would suddenly start to hesitate and shut the throttle when going around left hand corners, eventually bringing itself to a standstill. It seemed that PSM was strangely kicking in and killing the throttle.
A thousand and one things were checked all to no avail. Until it was noticed that it had different tyres front and rear, but matching on the same axle. Except that on the rear axle they were identical, except one was N rated and the other wasn't. Apparently they were fitted at the same time etc so had worn together. A matching set of tyres was put on the rear, and the problem went away.
As it only happened when the tyres were warm, the supposition was possibly that the difference in expansion rates of the two tyres was so great that it affected the speed differential on the axle enough that PSM thought that one of the wheels was slipping slightly and used ABD to try to control it and regain traction. Once this didn't work (as it wasn't actually slipping), it shut the throttle to reduce torque to the axle and regain control of the wayward wheel. Of course the wheel speeds were different right up until the wheels stopped moving, so it just kept the throttle shut.
This could certainly correlate with a claim that I have previously been told, that N rated and non N rated tyres are built to different tolerances and therefore can demonstrate different behaviours in use.
Just my 10 pence worth, to add another angle to the debate...
Edited to add: All of this of course, just indicates that there may be differences between the tyres, not that you wouldn't be perfectly fine using non N-rated tyres!
A good few years ago now, I witnessed an early 997 that after some spirited driving, would suddenly start to hesitate and shut the throttle when going around left hand corners, eventually bringing itself to a standstill. It seemed that PSM was strangely kicking in and killing the throttle.
A thousand and one things were checked all to no avail. Until it was noticed that it had different tyres front and rear, but matching on the same axle. Except that on the rear axle they were identical, except one was N rated and the other wasn't. Apparently they were fitted at the same time etc so had worn together. A matching set of tyres was put on the rear, and the problem went away.
As it only happened when the tyres were warm, the supposition was possibly that the difference in expansion rates of the two tyres was so great that it affected the speed differential on the axle enough that PSM thought that one of the wheels was slipping slightly and used ABD to try to control it and regain traction. Once this didn't work (as it wasn't actually slipping), it shut the throttle to reduce torque to the axle and regain control of the wayward wheel. Of course the wheel speeds were different right up until the wheels stopped moving, so it just kept the throttle shut.
This could certainly correlate with a claim that I have previously been told, that N rated and non N rated tyres are built to different tolerances and therefore can demonstrate different behaviours in use.
Just my 10 pence worth, to add another angle to the debate...
Edited to add: All of this of course, just indicates that there may be differences between the tyres, not that you wouldn't be perfectly fine using non N-rated tyres!
Edited by Pat Cash on Thursday 14th August 07:51
mollytherocker said:
Rockster, that all makes perfect sense until you bring the commercials in to play.
Do you really think that all of the parts on any Porsche are chosen on quality alone?
Batteries for example....
Batteries have no effect on the dynamics of a car, tyres have a HUGE impact. You must think all Porsche engines are designed on a budget as they've been known to go pop in the past...Do you really think that all of the parts on any Porsche are chosen on quality alone?
Batteries for example....
Porsche and Michelin spend a LOT of time and money making the tyre work well with the car. Michelin have a team of guys pretty much dedicated to Porsche!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
this 100% added to the fact there are 4 companies making N spec tyres and this happens with all 4, it's even a bigger joke.PSS is better than any of the 4 N spec offerings, or you choose to put a tyre on which is so called for a CGT front on your Cayman rear lol
it's about money nothing else, when the PSS came out it was non N spec and was tested on Porsche, Mercs, Ferrari etc and they claimed 5 seconds a lap faster.
Some 200mph cars fit PSS with no branding on them.
the loads have always been the same on N and on non N spec as have every detail on the side of the tyre.
If they do put 1% more rubber in a N spec or some magic dust, the load rating would change, I think you are better off fitting non N spec to avoid the issue of a tyre being soley developed on one car/axel and then fitting that to another car/axel sounds dangerous to me !!!!
TO not have available N spec PSS for a car which is now 11 years old is dam right poor regarding Boxster and Cayman sizes and then to say one will be out in 2016 !
I would say to all owners buy PSS non N spec and have one of the best tyres available today to use today on your mid engine car, knowing you are not fitting ditch finder N spec which have been made for another model/axel !
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 14th August 09:08
mrdemon said:
"However when we do tune a tyre for a vehicle it will make a difference to it's performance and that's what the manufacturers want for their cars and to some extent for the owners of the cars too.
"
Sorry Jamie but the 265/35/19 PSS N0 was made for the CGT front wheel.
Porsche have it listed as a fitment for a REAR CAYMAN and are happy to fit is as it's on there system.
BUT as it was not tuned to be on the rear of a Cayman and was so called tuned to be on the front of a CGT, I have to say N spec is laughable at best.
This pretty much sums it up, think about it they are saying a tyre which they have approved/modified/homologated/any other bull s"
Sorry Jamie but the 265/35/19 PSS N0 was made for the CGT front wheel.
Porsche have it listed as a fitment for a REAR CAYMAN and are happy to fit is as it's on there system.
BUT as it was not tuned to be on the rear of a Cayman and was so called tuned to be on the front of a CGT, I have to say N spec is laughable at best.
t for the front of a CGT, a 600hp 200mph 1500kg exotic is also the correct tyre to be used on the rear of a Cayman !!!! For fks sake what a crock of horse st.They do tweak tyres like the rears of the 7GT2RS which were different to the regular GT2 N0/N1s but I think this is a very rare occurence and the fact that the CGT front is on their system for the rear of Cayman proves this
Shurv said:
Funny, it's always the same vocal minority shouting very loudly against the N rated issue. This very kind man from Michelin has tried his utmost to explain the differences, yet you try to discredit his knowledge and wisdom. This is easy,if you don't buy into the N rated difference, don't buy the tyres, if you do buy into it, buy N rated. OP, make your own mind up what you prefer fitting and go shopping. This, as always, is a rather large can of worms.
mrdemon makes a valid point though no?Michelin fella claims it's about tuning to the individual vehicle. mrdemon points out that Porsche allow the fronts from a CGT on the rear of Cayman. Michelin fella's claim rings hollow.
DoubleSix said:
Shurv said:
Funny, it's always the same vocal minority shouting very loudly against the N rated issue. This very kind man from Michelin has tried his utmost to explain the differences, yet you try to discredit his knowledge and wisdom. This is easy,if you don't buy into the N rated difference, don't buy the tyres, if you do buy into it, buy N rated. OP, make your own mind up what you prefer fitting and go shopping. This, as always, is a rather large can of worms.
mrdemon makes a valid point though no?Michelin fella claims it's about tuning to the individual vehicle. mrdemon points out that Porsche allow the fronts from a CGT on the rear of Cayman. Michelin fella's claim rings hollow.
t rings hollow, that tyre will have been made for the CGT. It's Porsches recommendation to fit it to the Cayman.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff