Another question about N rated tyres
Discussion
Nurburgsingh said:
Similar line of question as Cmoose...
When Michelin roll out a new tyre, and its tested and approved by Porsche. Is it only tested on the current model range? or do you in fact have access to a fleet of historical cars for tyre testing ?
Why is it up to Michelin to test it on all historic Porsches?When Michelin roll out a new tyre, and its tested and approved by Porsche. Is it only tested on the current model range? or do you in fact have access to a fleet of historical cars for tyre testing ?
AFAIK for the road OE programs, Michelin submit the tyres to Porsche then Porsche do all the testing. It's the race team (GTx) that works more closely!
jon- said:
Why is it up to Michelin to test it on all historic Porsches?
AFAIK for the road OE programs, Michelin submit the tyres to Porsche then Porsche do all the testing. It's the race team (GTx) that works more closely!
My Porsche is a road car....if I bought it as a race car, I wouldn't put N tyres on it...I'd pop on slicks. Perhaps that's where the confusion is for the track day heroes.AFAIK for the road OE programs, Michelin submit the tyres to Porsche then Porsche do all the testing. It's the race team (GTx) that works more closely!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's quite simple. On the odd occasion when we try tweaked tyre off model x it also works on model yIt can just be that the changes we made work on a slightly different car.
HOWEVER
just because a tyre is "N" marked doesn't mean it's right for all models, for example the Carrera GT tyre for a Cayman.. different beasts altogether
anonymous said:
[redacted]
OKFact I never claimed that the Carrera GT tyre is approved for the Cayman. Simply because it isn't
the fact its the same size and N marked doesn't mean it's approved. It's approved for the Carrera GT. The fact a dealer see's an "N" and says its fine isn't the same.
Fact If I came on here and lied, between my UK Legal dept., UK Personnel and My Technical Boss in France, my backside wouldn't touch the ground on the way out of the building.
Please believe but you want, and yes you'd expect me to "big up" my employers product.
But LIE.. ha.. why do I bother..?
You need to work with Porsche then and get that tyre taken off the approved list for a Cayman.
as my UK Legal dept would be after some ones ass if the car was crashed and it was a rear tyre issue only made for the front of a CGT.
and not only that the Technical Manager for Michelin UK knows this to be the case !
It's not a dealer issue it,s a listed tyre which passes the 111 approved checks for this car !!!!
But as it is a off the shelf tyre then I guess not an issue ;-):
Unless you are stating as "The Technical Manager for Michelin UK " the CGT tyre is a full on bespoke build and Porsche UK are telling there 35 dealers the tyres ok for a Cayman, then there is a hugh issue.
as my UK Legal dept would be after some ones ass if the car was crashed and it was a rear tyre issue only made for the front of a CGT.
and not only that the Technical Manager for Michelin UK knows this to be the case !
It's not a dealer issue it,s a listed tyre which passes the 111 approved checks for this car !!!!
But as it is a off the shelf tyre then I guess not an issue ;-):
Unless you are stating as "The Technical Manager for Michelin UK " the CGT tyre is a full on bespoke build and Porsche UK are telling there 35 dealers the tyres ok for a Cayman, then there is a hugh issue.
Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 26th August 13:28
mrdemon said:
You need to work with Porsche then and get that tyre taken off the approved list for a Cayman.
as my UK Legal dept would be after some ones ass if the car was crashed and it was a rear tyre issue only made for the front of a CGT.
The claim from Michelin is that the tyre has been tailored for the front of the CGT.as my UK Legal dept would be after some ones ass if the car was crashed and it was a rear tyre issue only made for the front of a CGT.
Why do you believe that suddenly makes the tyre any less appropriate for the rear of the Cayman than any other (non N-rated) tyre available in the appropriate size?
Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 26th August 13:40
REALIST123 said:
After 25 years in the tyre business, I say there may be a difference but it's not significant. It's marketing.
How about this. Let's say Porsche have a test, that involves driving very hard for 30 min, normal road tread compounds tend to fall apart in this test. As a result Porsche and the tyre supplier work together to get a compound that can withstand this test. When the test passes all of Porsche's internal tests (including the 30min hard driving test) it gets approval and the N marking.Could that happen?
jon- said:
Why is it up to Michelin to test it on all historic Porsches?
AFAIK for the road OE programs, Michelin submit the tyres to Porsche then Porsche do all the testing. It's the race team (GTx) that works more closely!
I'll accept that point... AFAIK for the road OE programs, Michelin submit the tyres to Porsche then Porsche do all the testing. It's the race team (GTx) that works more closely!
and rephrase the question as I'm sure that the techs at the tyre companies know what the techs at Manufacturers do...
Do Porsche or indeed any other manufacturer only test tyres on their current model range or do they test on older models too?
And picking up on the Cayman/CGT tyre issue, I'm assuming that there is a different N number for the cayman tyre to the CGT tyre?
968's and 993's share the same rear tyre size, the loads on the tyres generated by the cars will be very different but as far as I can tell the same tyre is specced - happy to be told otherwise if that's not the case.
Where can you get information as to what each N number represents? Until now I had simply thought that N0 was an older version of an N1 etc...
Nurburgsingh said:
I'll accept that point...
and rephrase the question as I'm sure that the techs at the tyre companies know what the techs at Manufacturers do...
Do Porsche or indeed any other manufacturer only test tyres on their current model range or do they test on older models too?
And picking up on the Cayman/CGT tyre issue, I'm assuming that there is a different N number for the cayman tyre to the CGT tyre?
968's and 993's share the same rear tyre size, the loads on the tyres generated by the cars will be very different but as far as I can tell the same tyre is specced - happy to be told otherwise if that's not the case.
Where can you get information as to what each N number represents? Until now I had simply thought that N0 was an older version of an N1 etc...
That is correct.and rephrase the question as I'm sure that the techs at the tyre companies know what the techs at Manufacturers do...
Do Porsche or indeed any other manufacturer only test tyres on their current model range or do they test on older models too?
And picking up on the Cayman/CGT tyre issue, I'm assuming that there is a different N number for the cayman tyre to the CGT tyre?
968's and 993's share the same rear tyre size, the loads on the tyres generated by the cars will be very different but as far as I can tell the same tyre is specced - happy to be told otherwise if that's not the case.
Where can you get information as to what each N number represents? Until now I had simply thought that N0 was an older version of an N1 etc...
Nurburgsingh said:
sidicks said:
That is correct.
So how do you know then if you're fitting a CGT tyre to a Cayman OR... eben worse a cayman tyre to a CGT ?Which is what undermines all this 'tweaked' and 'tailored' for individual models BS we get from the manufacturers.
So The 997GTRS had a Cup + specially tweaked for it for the rear size and given a new N2 designation (compared to the N0 and N1 available for the GT2/GT3RS at the time)
So now Michelin recommends the Cup + 2 for GT2RS, is this the official Porsche recommendation or just Michelins, have Michelin or Porsche actually tested the Cup+2 on the GT2RS ?
Its all very confusing
So now Michelin recommends the Cup + 2 for GT2RS, is this the official Porsche recommendation or just Michelins, have Michelin or Porsche actually tested the Cup+2 on the GT2RS ?
Its all very confusing
Ive had a conversation with my OPC today in relation to Tyres for the 997.2RS -
"The only summer tyre option for you sir is the Pilot Sport Cup N1 "
"Porsche do not recommend mixing of N rated tyres on a car"
I asked about winter tyres, I was told the sizes but they couldn't tell me what the make or N rating of the tyre was.
I know that there is an N2 version of the rear tyre so I asked if there is a matching N2 front... "No sir, sorry only an N1"
Ok... So I asked How comes the GT2RS has an N1 front and an N2 rear if Porsche don't recommend mixing and matching?
They had a 4.0 and a GT2RS in the building so the guy went and checked, and what do you know...
GT3RS 4.0 N1's all round
GT2RS N1 front, N2 rear.
You don't need to be a Farmer to know what this smells like...
"The only summer tyre option for you sir is the Pilot Sport Cup N1 "
"Porsche do not recommend mixing of N rated tyres on a car"
I asked about winter tyres, I was told the sizes but they couldn't tell me what the make or N rating of the tyre was.
I know that there is an N2 version of the rear tyre so I asked if there is a matching N2 front... "No sir, sorry only an N1"
Ok... So I asked How comes the GT2RS has an N1 front and an N2 rear if Porsche don't recommend mixing and matching?
They had a 4.0 and a GT2RS in the building so the guy went and checked, and what do you know...
GT3RS 4.0 N1's all round
GT2RS N1 front, N2 rear.
You don't need to be a Farmer to know what this smells like...
Kawasicki said:
How about this. Let's say Porsche have a test, that involves driving very hard for 30 min, normal road tread compounds tend to fall apart in this test. As a result Porsche and the tyre supplier work together to get a compound that can withstand this test. When the test passes all of Porsche's internal tests (including the 30min hard driving test) it gets approval and the N marking.
Could that happen?
OkCould that happen?
Firstly, we would only develop compounds specific for the type of use. The battery of tests to get approval is significant, hence it often requires iterations of the product to get it all just right.
When we developed the * marked Pilot Super Sport for the current M5, we tried 2500 iterations of tyre in the whole development cycle.
But whatever the tyre, the marking and approval only comes if every single test is passed.
we do rig based testing for every tyre we develop as well as the rig testing for attaining the appropriate load and speed index marking
Nurburgsingh said:
Ive had a conversation with my OPC today in relation to Tyres for the 997.2RS -
"The only summer tyre option for you sir is the Pilot Sport Cup N1 "
"Porsche do not recommend mixing of N rated tyres on a car"
I asked about winter tyres, I was told the sizes but they couldn't tell me what the make or N rating of the tyre was.
I know that there is an N2 version of the rear tyre so I asked if there is a matching N2 front... "No sir, sorry only an N1"
Ok... So I asked How comes the GT2RS has an N1 front and an N2 rear if Porsche don't recommend mixing and matching?
They had a 4.0 and a GT2RS in the building so the guy went and checked, and what do you know...
GT3RS 4.0 N1's all round
GT2RS N1 front, N2 rear.
You don't need to be a Farmer to know what this smells like...
There are one or two Porsche's where the N number isn't the same all round. Specifically some GT2's ran an N1 front (235/35-19) and an N2 rears (325/30-19)"The only summer tyre option for you sir is the Pilot Sport Cup N1 "
"Porsche do not recommend mixing of N rated tyres on a car"
I asked about winter tyres, I was told the sizes but they couldn't tell me what the make or N rating of the tyre was.
I know that there is an N2 version of the rear tyre so I asked if there is a matching N2 front... "No sir, sorry only an N1"
Ok... So I asked How comes the GT2RS has an N1 front and an N2 rear if Porsche don't recommend mixing and matching?
They had a 4.0 and a GT2RS in the building so the guy went and checked, and what do you know...
GT3RS 4.0 N1's all round
GT2RS N1 front, N2 rear.
You don't need to be a Farmer to know what this smells like...
And again those instances will involve Porsche and us testing, and finding that that specific combination works just right.
On approval of tyres for 996/997, we will have tested the tyres (as Porsche will have) on older cars. Therefore if it's been approved for the car, it's been tested on one
It clearly looks like some information needs to feed down through to the centre's to advise consumers with the latest information. I will start investigating with my contact at Porsche today.
It looks clear some of you will never believe that the "N" marking is anything other than BS..
So I'm gonna give up the job of trying to convince..
I remain happy to answer any questions...
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