Cayman R - manual or PDK?
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Cmoose - I own a manual CR. I've therefore stood by my view in the most expressive way possible.It's not objectively provable, because driving is a subjective experience. When I had my (manual) GTS, I'd bang on about on here all the time, saying what a great car it was and telling all and sundry that it was way better than the "souped-up" C2S that many people accused it of being. I found other enthusiasts and owners who agreed with me. I felt it was closer in feel to a GT3 than a C2S but that was my view. Loads of people (some of whom had actually driven it) felt it was just a "souped up" C2S because they felt that there was very little or no difference between the two cars. Who's right? Well in my view, I was absolutely correct but I have to accept that they had a different experience when they drove the car. If they'd felt what I felt, then surely they'd agree with me that there is a tangible difference between the two.
Recently, I was fortunate enough to drive the new 981 Cayman range - and again to me the GTS was a much better car than the Cayman S. But others disagreed.
If somebody who likes cars but doesn't like changing gears were to buy a CR, surely PDK would be a much better subjective experience for them and they'd be able to objectively say that it was better - faster, more fuel efficient, more gears etc. They'd still be wrong for my experience but it would be wrong for me to suggest that they're also wrong for them.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh for pity's sake. You couldn't be missing the point more if you tried I think. Either that, or we're talking about 2 different things. I can summarise my PoV in about 4 points:1) I agree (as does everyone here apparently) that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK. Once more, I agree that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK.
2) Notwithstanding (1), there are valid reasons to spec a CR with a PDK gearbox that do not make it a wrong choice. And for the sake of argument, if PDK didn't exist, there'd be valid reasons for speccing a tiptronic on it if it was available depending on people's personal choices, so I am not "having it both ways".
3) I can't get my head around the fact that you can't seem to understand that the people in (2) exist and, shock horror, for some reason don't think identically to you or I when buying a car. As for the slight trivialising dig at "unidexters" - and for the record my example was a petrolhead who didn't have use of a foot, not a hand, but never mind - god forbid anything happened to you that meant you couldn't drive a manual, I trust that you'd stick to your principle, sell the Boxster, relegate yourself to a Mercedes or the like and not sully anything where the balance of petrolhead choice fell with a gearbox that allowed you to actually drive the car rather than just look at it.
4) None of my arguments have been "straw man" for the record, if you're referring to my comments in particular in that context.
It seems to me that you should be ultra clear, and just confirm, that you think anyone who ordered a CR with PDK (or bucket seats, or wherever your unknown boundary lies), for any reason, made a mistake and in your ideal world should not have been allowed a car in that spec. Either that, or we are actually on the same page, but somehow we're still debating it
Edited by Mario149 on Monday 18th August 08:47
would a 964RS be better with PDK ?
Walter is said to drive one because "he wants to drive it" not let the car drive him.
that sums it up imo, it's not a hard car to drive so people keep saying so why make the even easier ?
Plus it now one of the last cars which will be like this, The GTS with PDK, x73, Buckets is the faster car, so that's means now a much smaller market for the R in PDK because the GTS is the better ,faster car.
if money were not an issue but one was forced to have a PDK R or a PDK GTS, I am sure one would buy the PDK GTS.
I still want to own the R in manual over the new cars.
people still want to own the 996 GT3 over the 997.
People want to own the 997.2 RS over the 991 and in fact the 991 GT3 can be had 30k cheaper now !!!
Walter is said to drive one because "he wants to drive it" not let the car drive him.
that sums it up imo, it's not a hard car to drive so people keep saying so why make the even easier ?
Plus it now one of the last cars which will be like this, The GTS with PDK, x73, Buckets is the faster car, so that's means now a much smaller market for the R in PDK because the GTS is the better ,faster car.
if money were not an issue but one was forced to have a PDK R or a PDK GTS, I am sure one would buy the PDK GTS.
I still want to own the R in manual over the new cars.
people still want to own the 996 GT3 over the 997.
People want to own the 997.2 RS over the 991 and in fact the 991 GT3 can be had 30k cheaper now !!!
Mario149 said:
Oh for pity's sake. You couldn't be missing the point more if you tried I think. Either that, or we're talking about 2 different things. I can summarise my PoV in about 4 points:
1) I agree (as does everyone here apparently) that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK. Once more, I agree that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK.
2) Notwithstanding (1), there are valid reasons to spec a CR with a PDK gearbox that do not make it a wrong choice. And for the sake of argument, if PDK didn't exist, there'd be valid reasons for speccing a tiptronic on it if it was available depending on people's personal choices, so I am not "having it both ways".
3) I can't get my head around the fact that you can't seem to understand that the people in (2) exist and, shock horror, for some reason don't think identically to you or I when buying a car. As for the slight trivialising dig at "unidexters" - and for the record my example was a petrolhead who didn't have use of a foot, not a hand, but never mind - god forbid anything happened to you that meant you couldn't drive a manual, I trust that you'd stick to your principle, sell the Boxster, relegate yourself to a Mercedes or the like and not sully anything where the balance of petrolhead choice fell with a gearbox that allowed you to actually drive the car rather than just look at it.
4) None of my arguments have been "straw man" for the record, if you're referring to my comments in particular in that context.
It seems to me that you should be ultra clear, and just confirm, that you think anyone who ordered a CR with PDK (or bucket seats, or wherever your unknown boundary lies), for any reason, made a mistake and in your ideal world should not have been allowed a car in that spec. Either that, or we are actually on the same page, but somehow we're still debating it
Cmoose was only ever making point 1 yet everyone disagreed and accused him of saying a bunch of stuff that he didn't!1) I agree (as does everyone here apparently) that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK. Once more, I agree that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK.
2) Notwithstanding (1), there are valid reasons to spec a CR with a PDK gearbox that do not make it a wrong choice. And for the sake of argument, if PDK didn't exist, there'd be valid reasons for speccing a tiptronic on it if it was available depending on people's personal choices, so I am not "having it both ways".
3) I can't get my head around the fact that you can't seem to understand that the people in (2) exist and, shock horror, for some reason don't think identically to you or I when buying a car. As for the slight trivialising dig at "unidexters" - and for the record my example was a petrolhead who didn't have use of a foot, not a hand, but never mind - god forbid anything happened to you that meant you couldn't drive a manual, I trust that you'd stick to your principle, sell the Boxster, relegate yourself to a Mercedes or the like and not sully anything where the balance of petrolhead choice fell with a gearbox that allowed you to actually drive the car rather than just look at it.
4) None of my arguments have been "straw man" for the record, if you're referring to my comments in particular in that context.
It seems to me that you should be ultra clear, and just confirm, that you think anyone who ordered a CR with PDK (or bucket seats, or wherever your unknown boundary lies), for any reason, made a mistake and in your ideal world should not have been allowed a car in that spec. Either that, or we are actually on the same page, but somehow we're still debating it
Edited by Mario149 on Monday 18th August 08:47
Classic PH to disagree with someone and then, when it becomes clear they are right, invent other things that they might have said (but didn't) and with which you disagree.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My case doesn't depend on unidexters or plutocrats at all. It was an example to help you understand why somebody might have a different view (clearly it failed).You're trying to make something that's subjective; objective and it can't be done! Usage examples are precisely the thing that's important to the individual and is why somebody's view of what's right is as valid an another's unless it is objectively provable - and as far as driving goes, purchasing decisions are at least partly subjective because otherwise we'd all be driving exactly the same car (resource depending).
This is why most of us agree that a manual suits the car better (your objective case) but in my case and Mario's and others we also accept that other people may have a different view (because of their subjective experience) which is as valid for them because I can't experience what they want / feel when they drive. I'm not sure why you don't accept this?
Also, doesn't your moot outlier phrase directly contradict your earlier statement that popularity had nothing to do with merit! Odd!
Mermaid said:
air-con or nor, Xenons, seats, wheels, colour, smaller fuel tank, sports exchaust
I think my spec would have to include wheels and seats, other wise it's not going very far :-)perfect spec aside, it is what Porsche launched it with, so the right parts inc. Buckets, Spyder wheels etc.
the rest is a bit personal imo but like any single Porsche I buy it has to have full leather.
I don't want a Lotus plastic fantastic dash in my 60K Porsche.
even the 991 GT3 spec sans leather looks poor.
what happens as normal is rich people spec what they want, so normal seats, the wheels they like the look of etc on a PCP of 3 years and hand it back.
The 2nd hand enthusiast market in cars like these inc GT3 etc want Buckets, the right wheels etc and will prob choose manual.
The richer foke have moved onto brand new 981's ;-) again not speccing X73 sus or manuals or buckets, but comfort spec cars.
Even the 991 GT3 market for the 1st owners is comfort spec, 2nd hand as proven time and time again will demand buckets etc.
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