Cayman R - manual or PDK?

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The issue for me is that you said that not all people's views were equally valid. Nobody is arguing that a PDK suits the CR more than a manual in fact as far as I can see everybody has conceded that a manual gearbox suits the character of the CR. What I'm saying is that people who think that PDK is more suited to the CR are not wrong - they merely have different sujbective reasons for believing that to be the case. The extreme examples are just that, designed to highlight what some of these reasons might be. And they are relevant because it is the individual who chooses to buy the car for their own subjective reasons.

This is why when people ask "should I buy PDK or manual? One of the most popular answers is "try both, see what you like the most and buy that one!"

Having said that there are some purchases which are frankly bewildering. ORD seems to be a strong supporter of the manual gearbox for the CR but actually appears to own a PDK Cayman S.

[Mr Ping]

If the seat belts aren't red then it's the wrong spec and not worth jack st, that plus you cant drive

[Mermaid]

Ceramics or not

Buckets or not

Xenons or not

Air con or not

Spyder wheels or not

Sports exhaust or not

Smaller tank or not

PDK or not

I expect this will go on till the next CR makes its appearance.

Was the E60 M5 better as a manual? The Yankee dudes demanded that option.

[ChrisW.]

Nooooo, PDK is better.

Cruise to work in Auto, drive it home in Manual --- PDK is the gearbox for all reasons.

Faster, more economical --- no worry about the secondhand buzzed engine, and when you are driving really quickly changing gear manually is one of the easer control surfaces so PDK simply gives the driver more options ...

What is not to like ?

Oh, I forgot, I can't be a serious driver if I don't need to constantly practice my heel and toeing, --- or is it toe and heeling on a RHD manual Cayman R ?



Go for the rarer (manual) or the more popular (PDK) and thank goodness, in this car at least there is a choice !

Of course, the new GT4 will be PDK to make the best of it's V4 Turbocharged engine

Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 19th August 20:37

[mrdemon]

more economical !!!!

I am not so sure on this in real life.

I get more MPG vs my mates PDK car every run out

I think Sports plus eats petrol and he needs to be in that mode to keep up :-)

Roll on the GT4 manual, it's bound to be manual....

[rob.kellock]

PDK miles more economical when you let it dictate and drive lazily.

When you are "on it" there's nothing in it.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I agree with you Moose, IMHO the R is better with a manual over PDK, it's why I bought a manual and not PDK. If somebody sought my opinion on the matter, I'd tell them exactly as you have that IMHO, the manual in a CR suits the ethos behind it far better than any auto 'box and is a far more immersive experience overall with a manual 'box, especially as it's a particularly sweet shifting manual 'box unlike the one in my old E92 M3 (which was a little notchy). But I still maintain that driving is a subjective experience, so there is no black and white answer to which is "better" because it will differ for each individual. It doesn't matter if you or I believe that the car has an optimal spec for an enthusiast - it's the subjective experience of driving the car that should determine the merit of PDK or manual as far as a potential buyer is concerned.

I recently bought an M235i for the Mrs - she wanted an auto and the 8 spd ZF in it is a phenomenal transmission, I really like driving the car, it's a great little motor and it's both fast and remarkably practical. It's no match for the CR in terms of the driver experience though but most people who I've taken out in both (and generally aren't car enthusiasts) prefer it to my car. I find it odd that they don't notice that the chassis in mine is far superior, that the brakes are better, that it sounds nicer, that it's ride whilst firmer is so much better. What they look for in a car is just different to what I want.

[Mario149]

ORD said:

Mario149 said:

Oh for pity's sake. You couldn't be missing the point more if you tried I think. Either that, or we're talking about 2 different things. I can summarise my PoV in about 4 points:

1) I agree (as does everyone here apparently) that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK. Once more, I agree that the Manual is more suited to the CR than a PDK.
2) Notwithstanding (1), there are valid reasons to spec a CR with a PDK gearbox that do not make it a wrong choice. And for the sake of argument, if PDK didn't exist, there'd be valid reasons for speccing a tiptronic on it if it was available depending on people's personal choices, so I am not "having it both ways".
3) I can't get my head around the fact that you can't seem to understand that the people in (2) exist and, shock horror, for some reason don't think identically to you or I when buying a car. As for the slight trivialising dig at "unidexters" - and for the record my example was a petrolhead who didn't have use of a foot, not a hand, but never mind - god forbid anything happened to you that meant you couldn't drive a manual, I trust that you'd stick to your principle, sell the Boxster, relegate yourself to a Mercedes or the like and not sully anything where the balance of petrolhead choice fell with a gearbox that allowed you to actually drive the car rather than just look at it.
4) None of my arguments have been "straw man" for the record, if you're referring to my comments in particular in that context.

It seems to me that you should be ultra clear, and just confirm, that you think anyone who ordered a CR with PDK (or bucket seats, or wherever your unknown boundary lies), for any reason, made a mistake and in your ideal world should not have been allowed a car in that spec. Either that, or we are actually on the same page, but somehow we're still debating it

Edited by Mario149 on Monday 18th August 08:47

Cmoose was only ever making point 1 yet everyone disagreed and accused him of saying a bunch of stuff that he didn't!

Classic PH to disagree with someone and then, when it becomes clear they are right, invent other things that they might have said (but didn't) and with which you disagree.

If you read my posts in particular, you'll find that I took issue with the fact that cmoose appeared to not to acknowledge that some people might want a PDK rather than a manual for valid reasons. Examples of reasons were then given by myself which he dismissed, IMO, flippantly, with no acknowledgement of the context they were given in (although do I appreciate that the written word does not always convey the impression it was meant to)

Classic PH not to read someone's posts carefully enough?

ETA: and thinking about the original premise more ("Cayman R is objectively better with a manual" rather than the part I took issue with "PDK specced CR is a bad spec"), I think this is true, with the caveat that only the Porsche range of cars is being considered. However, if you take into account other vehicles that are available, you can make a strong argument that it PDK is the "correct" choice. I would argue that making an objective judgement after limiting the potential pool of cars may render it a subjective opinion.

Edited by Mario149 on Wednesday 20th August 09:20

[ORD]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Most people just want toys and a badge. Most supposed enthusiasts just want that plus some pub bore statistics and a farty exhaust.

It's pretty rare, even on PH, to hear someone laud a car for its chassis and dynamics. I got slated for saying that a Golf R just doesn't interest me because its AWD and a 4-pot. Apparently it's got lots of horses and torques and that's all that matters.

[Slippydiff]

ORD said:

It's pretty rare, even on PH, to hear someone laud a car for its chassis and dynamics. I got slated for saying that a Golf R just doesn't interest me because its AWD and a 4-pot. Apparently it's got lots of horses and torques and that's all that matters.

Errr, I got slated when I proffered my views on the 964 RS, by none other than ........... you As I recall you took great delight in pi*ssing on my chips Albeit in a tongue in cheek manner, which fortunately I responded to in a similarly light-hearted manner. (Unlike most on PH these days .......)

[ORD]

Slippydiff said:

Errr, I got slated when I proffered my views on the 964 RS, by none other than ........... you As I recall you took great delight in pi*ssing on my chips Albeit in a tongue in cheek manner, which fortunately I responded to in a similarly light-hearted manner. (Unlike most on PH these days .......)

You were lauding it for handling like a pissed tramp carrying a huge bag of spuds down a slippery road.

I quote: 'It handles great as long as you go in very slowly and trail brake to the apex and then balance it on throttle. Otherwise, it's an understeering pig with snap oversteer to boot. It rides like falling down a brick staircase and onto a knife. Perfect!'

In seriousness, that's pretty much a fair cop. I get tired of all the supposed enthusiasts who really do rate cars by bhp numbers and 'ring times. And I was a bit towards that in taking the piss out of your p&j.

[Slippydiff]

ORD said:

I quote: 'It handles great as long as you go in very slowly and trail brake to the apex and then balance it on throttle. Otherwise, it's an understeering pig

In seriousness, that's pretty much a fair cop. I get tired of all the supposed enthusiasts who really do rate cars by bhp numbers and 'ring times. And I was a bit towards that in taking the piss out of your p&j.

I have no recollection of saying anything about going in "very slowly".
Trail braking, certainly. Balancing it on the throttle, most definitely.

Regrettably my Manthey'd Mk1 has left the fold, otherwise the offer I made to you previously would still stand. I sense you don't "get" (perhaps even don't want to to get ?) the air-cooled cars, nor indeed perhaps the early iterations of the GT3 ?

You really should get out with the GT3 mafia crowd when we do a N.Wales run, you'd get to see what all the "fuss" is about. If some of the quick 964/993 boys attend too, you'd see the pace a well driven air-cooled car can attain (and just how engaging/visceral/much fun they are to drive)

When the right opportunity presents itself, I'll let you know. Mind you, as a Cayman PDK ? driver, I'm guessing you'll most likely be washing your hair or doing your nails ?

(The last comment said strictly tongue in cheek/taking the p*ss you understand)

[mrdemon]

I'll have to head over to wales see if you can keep up with just the 320bhp I have.

[Slippydiff]

mrdemon said:

I'll have to head over to wales see if you can keep up with just the 320bhp I have.

Oooh, I didn't see that coming. I'm not sure if I feel threatened or just plain afraid ?

On the basis you're unlikely to make an appearance for fear of being lynched, I won't give your "challenge" much (if indeed any) credence.

It may come as a shock to you, but the N.Wales runs I've been involved with haven't been about "beating" everyone else in the group, neither are they about who can drive the fastest from A to B (I believe that's called racing and is done on race circuits, rally stages and a host of other venues ?)
It's about a like-minded bunch of individuals meeting up for a bit of light-hearted banter, a bite to eat, and for some, a "spirited" drive on the great roads N.Wales provides. Others will be happy to potter and just arrive when they arrive.
I can't remember having witnessed anyone trying to "prove they're quicker/est" on the N.Wales runs I've attended. If someone did so, I suspect most, if not all, would view the individual as a bit of a to**er.

I previously invited ORD to passenger in my GT3, but having sold it, that's not possible. But rest assured, there will be a replacement, and when there is, my invite to him stands.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to attend any N.Wales meet. Others however may not be so accommodating........
But my guess is, even if you were invited, you wouldn't attend. And for the record, sitting on a hilltop and timing/filming others driving between two fixed points on the road and seeing if you can "beat" their time afterwards, does not constitute "attending".

Just sayin ;-)

[J-P]

Slippydiff said:

mrdemon said:

I'll have to head over to wales see if you can keep up with just the 320bhp I have.

Oooh, I didn't see that coming. I'm not sure if I feel threatened or just plain afraid ?

On the basis you're unlikely to make an appearance for fear of being lynched, I won't give your "challenge" much (if indeed any) credence.

It may come as a shock to you, but the N.Wales runs I've been involved with haven't been about "beating" everyone else in the group, neither are they about who can drive the fastest from A to B (I believe that's called racing and is done on race circuits, rally stages and a host of other venues ?)
It's about a like-minded bunch of individuals meeting up for a bit of light-hearted banter, a bite to eat, and for some, a "spirited" drive on the great roads N.Wales provides. Others will be happy to potter and just arrive when they arrive.
I can't remember having witnessed anyone trying to "prove they're quicker/est" on the N.Wales runs I've attended. If someone did so, I suspect most, if not all, would view the individual as a bit of a to**er.

I previously invited ORD to passenger in my GT3, but having sold it, that's not possible. But rest assured, there will be a replacement, and when there is, my invite to him stands.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to attend any N.Wales meet. Others however may not be so accommodating........
But my guess is, even if you were invited, you wouldn't attend. And for the record, sitting on a hilltop and timing/filming others driving between two fixed points on the road and seeing if you can "beat" their time afterwards, does not constitute "attending".

Just sayin ;-)

Ouch!

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Very true - I wouldn't have a Golf R as my only car for the same reasons - before we bought the M235i, we tried an Audi S3 (as the Mrs likes 4WD), combination of the dealer being useless and the car being merely nice meant that we ended up in the BMW, which is miles better.

[ORD]

Slippydiff said:

ORD said:

I quote: 'It handles great as long as you go in very slowly and trail brake to the apex and then balance it on throttle. Otherwise, it's an understeering pig

In seriousness, that's pretty much a fair cop. I get tired of all the supposed enthusiasts who really do rate cars by bhp numbers and 'ring times. And I was a bit towards that in taking the piss out of your p&j.

I have no recollection of saying anything about going in "very slowly".
Trail braking, certainly. Balancing it on the throttle, most definitely.

Regrettably my Manthey'd Mk1 has left the fold, otherwise the offer I made to you previously would still stand. I sense you don't "get" (perhaps even don't want to to get ?) the air-cooled cars, nor indeed perhaps the early iterations of the GT3 ?

You really should get out with the GT3 mafia crowd when we do a N.Wales run, you'd get to see what all the "fuss" is about. If some of the quick 964/993 boys attend too, you'd see the pace a well driven air-cooled car can attain (and just how engaging/visceral/much fun they are to drive)

When the right opportunity presents itself, I'll let you know. Mind you, as a Cayman PDK ? driver, I'm guessing you'll most likely be washing your hair or doing your nails ?

(The last comment said strictly tongue in cheek/taking the p*ss you understand)

Not at all. Don't you remember that I said I actually do get the old 911 thing and was only playing Devil's advocate?

I'd be glad to join you in N Wales, although that is bloody far away from London. Still, my soft suspension and squidgy seats should get me there in comfort

If I had a garage and other things necessary to running two cars, I would have an old GT3 in a heartbeat.

[Slippydiff]

ORD said:

I'd be glad to join you in N Wales, although that is bloody far away from London.

Strewth yes, good point, I hadn't thought of that, it must be what ? a good 3 1/2- 4 hours to N.Wales, hardly seems worth it to drive a sports car on some decent roads when you could just go posing on the Kings Road or nip to The Ace Cafe ........
But look on the bright side, if you did undertake what would clearly be a mammoth, groundbreaking expedition to the far reaches of Snowdonia in Northern Wales you won't have to go through the nasty, dull, boring rigmarole of changing gear whilst getting there

[ORD]

Slippydiff said:

Strewth yes, good point, I hadn't thought of that, it must be what ? a good 3 1/2- 4 hours to N.Wales, hardly seems worth it to drive a sports car on some decent roads when you could just go posing on the Kings Road or nip to The Ace Cafe ........
But look on the bright side, if you did undertake what would clearly be a mammoth, groundbreaking expedition to the far reaches of Snowdonia in Northern Wales you won't have to go through the nasty, dull, boring rigmarole of changing gear whilst getting there

Posing in a poverty Porsche? I'd get thrown spare change by the Saudis in Ferraris and Lambos.

My next Porsche is definitely going to be a manual - probably a 997 GTS (I need the back seats as there is a little ORD coming). I looked into 993s but the prices are literally absurd, and they are tiny so not much good as a more practical replacement. It's amazing how small the air cooled cars are compared to a 991 or even a 996.

One thing that PDK is useful for, while I am on its side for once, is that it is excellent on the motorway. It makes a motorway cruise safer that you can just stamp on the throttle to avoid being mashed by an idiot in an MPV, rather than executing a perfect throttle matched change down to 4th as you get killed.

[mrdemon]

Slippydiff said:

Oooh, I didn't see that coming. I'm not sure if I feel threatened or just plain afraid ?

On the basis you're unlikely to make an appearance for fear of being lynched, I won't give your "challenge" much (if indeed any) credence.

It may come as a shock to you, but the N.Wales runs I've been involved with haven't been about "beating" everyone else in the group, neither are they about who can drive the fastest from A to B (I believe that's called racing and is done on race circuits, rally stages and a host of other venues ?)
It's about a like-minded bunch of individuals meeting up for a bit of light-hearted banter, a bite to eat, and for some, a "spirited" drive on the great roads N.Wales provides. Others will be happy to potter and just arrive when they arrive.
I can't remember having witnessed anyone trying to "prove they're quicker/est" on the N.Wales runs I've attended. If someone did so, I suspect most, if not all, would view the individual as a bit of a to**er.

I previously invited ORD to passenger in my GT3, but having sold it, that's not possible. But rest assured, there will be a replacement, and when there is, my invite to him stands.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to attend any N.Wales meet. Others however may not be so accommodating........
But my guess is, even if you were invited, you wouldn't attend. And for the record, sitting on a hilltop and timing/filming others driving between two fixed points on the road and seeing if you can "beat" their time afterwards, does not constitute "attending".

Just sayin ;-)

You are so funny with my tongue in cheek comment, more the fool you though as you stated no one could keep up with you on the last trip lol
To quote :-)

In the spring of last year several mates and I met up early one Sunday morning for a N.Wales hoon.

The cars that attended were my Manthey modified Mk 1 996 GT3, an unmodified Mk1 996 GT3 Clubsport, an M3 CSL, a 964 RS and a Boxster Spyder (AKA a ragtop Cayman R).

I got to be lead gunner in the morning, I thus led down roads I knew fairly well. The only car that managed to keep up with the Manthey GT3 ? The Boxster Spyder (albeit it’s brakes began to fade badly and then the pedal went rather spongy for the rest of the day) "


yes that sounds like a nice 60mph run out with your mates !!

Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 21st August 09:02