Cayman R - manual or PDK?
Discussion
Mermaid said:
at 475ps, Porsche decided a PDK was better for the GT3. Manual with the 7.2 GT3RS was, IMO, the optimum for its application.
A GT3 like PDK in the 4.0RS would have been awesome.
And that shoots my argument out of the water....A GT3 like PDK in the 4.0RS would have been awesome.
But in fairness you are not comparing apples with apples... A GT3 is sooo much faster, the PDK is needed to keep up!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And a PDK Cayman R is nowhere near the "objective limits" of "this kind of relativism".The car is a fast, modern performance car. An opinion that a fast, modern gearbox is, objectively, simply not possibly suited to such a car is a nonsense. That comes down to preference. Hence it is like opinions on colours - yours is no more right (or wrong) than mine. If you were right there would be no demand for PDK Cayman Rs at all.
You seem unable to accept that a car enthusiast would, heaven forbid, actually chose a paddle-shift gearbox as if the two are mutually exclusive.
Will throw in my 2 1/2p...and batten down the hatches
I bought a used peridot green cayman R with PDK spec to learn how to drive a car instinctively with paddle shift - it is a stunning car with an immaculate balance the PDK doesn't detract and it fights way above its weight
Am lucky enough to have a 964rs (non PDK) for the purer drive and Rupert Lewin's Ansgar/Manthey modified GT3 mk1 for those more brutal moments...the engine note above 6500rpm with cup intakes is pure Mulsanne
They are all special and have their characters but to totally dismiss a CR with PDK is a bit too black and white...
I bought a used peridot green cayman R with PDK spec to learn how to drive a car instinctively with paddle shift - it is a stunning car with an immaculate balance the PDK doesn't detract and it fights way above its weight
Am lucky enough to have a 964rs (non PDK) for the purer drive and Rupert Lewin's Ansgar/Manthey modified GT3 mk1 for those more brutal moments...the engine note above 6500rpm with cup intakes is pure Mulsanne
They are all special and have their characters but to totally dismiss a CR with PDK is a bit too black and white...
mrdemon said:
rudester said:
Ha ha, yes i'm sure. I bet a drive out in the GT3 soon puts it out of your memory though!
lets hope so other wise his GT3 owner ship might be as short as mine. :-)anonymous said:
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To a degree, it does. It if had no merit (or if there was no value in the view that PDK was preferable to manual) then there would have been no sales (and asking prices on the used market would be significantly lower).I'd suggest that, at this "extreme" end of the market, the fact that there is a demand for PDK from knowledgable buyers suggests that it has some merits (albeit not to you).
anonymous said:
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I agree, to a point - but don't forget that there was a relatively even spread between manuals and PDK - and the PDK cost significantly more, so it cannot be that bad!anonymous said:
[redacted]
And of course you are entitled to your view, but that doesn't mean that there is no merit to the opposing view - and certainly doesn't mean that there is no value in such an opinion!As to the OP it really is worth trying out a PDK box for a decent period of time so that you can make an informed decision, rather than one based on the most vocal side of the divide!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That neither was more popular than the other, and that therefore there was no "appeal to popularity".The fact that about half the buyers at this enthusiast end of the market, for a specialist car that would be off the radar of most non-enthusiasts, opted for PDK suggests to me that it has merits and those views and preferences should not simply be dismissed as being of no value (or at least, you've made no clear argument that they should be). That's not an "appeal to popularity" - it indicates that people have different preferences, which is the point I have been making all along. We're back to discussing the "right" colour again - there is no such thing, and I fail to see how there could be a right or wrong answer with respect to whether someone buys a PDK or a manual car.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
God, so in your bland world people aren't even able to have different views of seats or wheels either?It is, at best, crassly arrogant to consider that your own opinion has merit and is "right" in matters of personal preference. What gives you such confidence I wonder?
If we were talking about white goods then your argument about popularity would have more weight. We aren't - the distinction is the demographic of buyers I would expect of this type of car. Yes, I believe that PDK has benefits and that is why some buyers opted for them because that is what they preferred. That's not an "appeal to popularity" but is evidence that people hold different views to yours - I know, how dare they!
Your argument appears to be that merit is irrelevant in such buying decisions at this end of the market. I don't think that bears much scrutiny (at least, you've not provided any substantiation for it).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
so is the 991 GT3 a digital car?
Was it wrong to fit a SMG box on the CSL? And why did Porsche fit a PDK to the CR?
IMO, a PDK CR it is no lesser a car than a manual one. Ditto DCT equipped M4 is to a manual M4.
Analogue/digital - not a switch, bur great for arguing for there are two sides.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, the overarching point is that PDK is considered to be "good" (i.e. preferable some buyers over a manual) and that's why 50% of buyers picked it (and continue to pick it). It's not "good" because people spec'd it - they spec'd it because it is good (and better, for them, than the manual option).As to arrogance, see above. I don't know why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this topic, it seems to me that you simply don't accept that any view other than your own can be correct.
No need to try any harder if that is the best you can do!
Will, you are, despite what you say, arguing that the popularity of PDK is evidence that it is good.
You are not trying to show that PDK is popular (which is common ground) but rather that it is good, and you are relying on its popularity in support of that proposition.
If you were relying on the argument that PDK is popular because it is good, that would make no sense when it is common ground that PDK is good but not that it is popular. At best, it would be relying on what you have to prove (goodness).
The argument is something like this:-
(1) PDK is popular.
(2) Good things are popular (and vice-versa)
(3) Accordingly, PDK is good.
cmoose's point is that proposition (2) is b
ks, which it is.
You are not trying to show that PDK is popular (which is common ground) but rather that it is good, and you are relying on its popularity in support of that proposition.
If you were relying on the argument that PDK is popular because it is good, that would make no sense when it is common ground that PDK is good but not that it is popular. At best, it would be relying on what you have to prove (goodness).
The argument is something like this:-
(1) PDK is popular.
(2) Good things are popular (and vice-versa)
(3) Accordingly, PDK is good.
cmoose's point is that proposition (2) is b
ks, which it is.I'll declare myself as someone who's more of a manual gearbox person myself but, some thoughts occur to me
1) when we declare that loads of people buy Porsches new (especially 911s, Boxsters and Caymans) are buying them purely as a status symbol, I think we are deceiving ourselves purely to make us feel good because obviously *we're* the real enthusiasts and they're just guys with more money than sense by and large. Or so we like to think. While I'm sure there are people who go and buy these cars as a status symbol and nothing else, I suspect they're in the minority, even more so for the more niche, impractical, uncomfortable editions such as the cars being discussed here. I've come across my fair share of wealthy, image is everything people, probably more so than most as I live in London, and not one of whom I know has gone and bought a new Porsche (or a second hand one for that matter). Until someone can show me something remotely resembling evidence (rather than just opinions and here say that people take as a given) I'll reserve my judgment as to new Porsche car buyer motivations.
2) regarding the Cayman R and Boxster Spyder, I've never driven them but my understanding is that they are supposed to be more pared down compared to their "regular" model lines, much more performance orientated, more hardcore if you will. To that end, choosing PDK for them with say the thought "I can be faster on my favourite tracks and challenging roads with PDK, as well as have an easier time on my commute when I want to drive my awesome car on a regular day" seems an eminently logical choice. It's not one that I would make, but then my priorities/likes at subtly different. I'm not any more of an enthusiast than they are, I'm just different. To declare that PDK for these cars is somehow wrong seems, at best, very daft.
Edited for speelung
1) when we declare that loads of people buy Porsches new (especially 911s, Boxsters and Caymans) are buying them purely as a status symbol, I think we are deceiving ourselves purely to make us feel good because obviously *we're* the real enthusiasts and they're just guys with more money than sense by and large. Or so we like to think. While I'm sure there are people who go and buy these cars as a status symbol and nothing else, I suspect they're in the minority, even more so for the more niche, impractical, uncomfortable editions such as the cars being discussed here. I've come across my fair share of wealthy, image is everything people, probably more so than most as I live in London, and not one of whom I know has gone and bought a new Porsche (or a second hand one for that matter). Until someone can show me something remotely resembling evidence (rather than just opinions and here say that people take as a given) I'll reserve my judgment as to new Porsche car buyer motivations.
2) regarding the Cayman R and Boxster Spyder, I've never driven them but my understanding is that they are supposed to be more pared down compared to their "regular" model lines, much more performance orientated, more hardcore if you will. To that end, choosing PDK for them with say the thought "I can be faster on my favourite tracks and challenging roads with PDK, as well as have an easier time on my commute when I want to drive my awesome car on a regular day" seems an eminently logical choice. It's not one that I would make, but then my priorities/likes at subtly different. I'm not any more of an enthusiast than they are, I'm just different. To declare that PDK for these cars is somehow wrong seems, at best, very daft.
Edited for speelung
Edited by Mario149 on Friday 15th August 18:19
Mario149 said:
...To that end, choosing PDK for them with say the thought "I can be faster on my favourite tracks and challenging roads with PDK, as well as have an easier time on my commute when I want to drive my awesome car on a regular day" seems an eminently logical choice. It's not one that I would make, but then my priorities/likes at subtly different. I'm not any more of an enthusiast than they are, I'm just different. To declare that PDK for these cars is somehow wrong seems, at best, very daft.
Agreed, notwithstanding the CR in the Porsche museum is likely to be the manual version. But I am confident more views inbound. 
PDK is the right box in the right car , here is an example.
I drove the amazing 458 speciale today and WOW just WOW , this thing is just amazing in every way, 600bhp and that performance demands it's gear box, the cars so fast and the steering is so fast you want and need both hands on the wheel.
The sound the speed of every thing, there is no time for a manual box in that car for my skill set.
Now let's take our little 300bhp cars, they are fun Little cars and manual makes you feel as one with the car, in the 458 speciale the dual clutch works and keeps you at one with the car,
PDK in a 300bhp car is just dull as dish water your brain has nothing to do, the cars not fast enough for your brain so if I had PDK in my R I would be thinking about what to cook for dinner or tomorrow's time table.
Give it a week I would be board, I was with my DCT V8 competition , it lasted 2 months I was board stless.
I am going out on a limb here and I am going to say people on the whole who like PDK in the lower Bhp NA cars don't really know how to get the best from a manual and the PDK makes them feel a faster and a better driver.
Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
I exclude turbo cars from that as I think dual clutch in a turbo car really helps you avoid lag.
I drove the amazing 458 speciale today and WOW just WOW , this thing is just amazing in every way, 600bhp and that performance demands it's gear box, the cars so fast and the steering is so fast you want and need both hands on the wheel.
The sound the speed of every thing, there is no time for a manual box in that car for my skill set.
Now let's take our little 300bhp cars, they are fun Little cars and manual makes you feel as one with the car, in the 458 speciale the dual clutch works and keeps you at one with the car,
PDK in a 300bhp car is just dull as dish water your brain has nothing to do, the cars not fast enough for your brain so if I had PDK in my R I would be thinking about what to cook for dinner or tomorrow's time table.
Give it a week I would be board, I was with my DCT V8 competition , it lasted 2 months I was board s
tless. I am going out on a limb here and I am going to say people on the whole who like PDK in the lower Bhp NA cars don't really know how to get the best from a manual and the PDK makes them feel a faster and a better driver.
Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
I exclude turbo cars from that as I think dual clutch in a turbo car really helps you avoid lag.
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