Cayman R - manual or PDK?
Discussion
anonymous said:
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1RS not really that different from the 7.1, is it? And the 7.2 GT3 is an excellent road car - the 7.2 RS liked more by the motoring world (ooops, like does not count in assessing goodness - but fairly good in standard form to perform well at the N24 & recent Evo test)Think you would like the 40RS - almost the limit at which manual makes sense. I would have preferred that car to be PDK.
anonymous said:
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Or from the other side: "why would I not prioritise going faster down my favourite road/track? I have plenty enough "feel" from the car already. Surely once I like how the car feels, the aim is to be able to go faster using PDK tech which gives me the most enjoyable driving experience down the road (because I'm different from the next person). If I wanted a more analogue car, I'd have bought an Evora. As it is, I want the sweetest handling car Porsche make where I can use PDK to peddle it the fastest and at the same time potter to work in in complete comfort and ease should I want".mrdemon said:
PDK is the right box in the right car , here is an example.
I drove the amazing 458 speciale today and WOW just WOW , this thing is just amazing in every way, 600bhp and that performance demands it's gear box, the cars so fast and the steering is so fast you want and need both hands on the wheel.
The sound the speed of every thing, there is no time for a manual box in that car for my skill set.
Now let's take our little 300bhp cars, they are fun Little cars and manual makes you feel as one with the car, in the 458 speciale the dual clutch works and keeps you at one with the car,
PDK in a 300bhp car is just dull as dish water your brain has nothing to do, the cars not fast enough for your brain so if I had PDK in my R I would be thinking about what to cook for dinner or tomorrow's time table.
Give it a week I would be board, I was with my DCT V8 competition , it lasted 2 months I was board s
tless.
I am going out on a limb here and I am going to say people on the whole who like PDK in the lower Bhp NA cars don't really know how to get the best from a manual and the PDK makes them feel a faster and a better driver.
Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
I exclude turbo cars from that as I think dual clutch in a turbo car really helps you avoid lag.
Agree, I think there is a performance level where PDK / Double clutch makes sense and it actually adds to the experience.I drove the amazing 458 speciale today and WOW just WOW , this thing is just amazing in every way, 600bhp and that performance demands it's gear box, the cars so fast and the steering is so fast you want and need both hands on the wheel.
The sound the speed of every thing, there is no time for a manual box in that car for my skill set.
Now let's take our little 300bhp cars, they are fun Little cars and manual makes you feel as one with the car, in the 458 speciale the dual clutch works and keeps you at one with the car,
PDK in a 300bhp car is just dull as dish water your brain has nothing to do, the cars not fast enough for your brain so if I had PDK in my R I would be thinking about what to cook for dinner or tomorrow's time table.
Give it a week I would be board, I was with my DCT V8 competition , it lasted 2 months I was board s
tless. I am going out on a limb here and I am going to say people on the whole who like PDK in the lower Bhp NA cars don't really know how to get the best from a manual and the PDK makes them feel a faster and a better driver.
Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
I exclude turbo cars from that as I think dual clutch in a turbo car really helps you avoid lag.
I was bored with a PDK Spyder after 30mins! I was shocked, but it did also have the wrong wheels and sports seats, the package wasn't at its best. It lacked total character. The manual was a transformation.
I bet the speciale was utterly amazing,
mrdemon said:
I am going out on a limb here and I am going to say people on the whole who like PDK in the lower Bhp NA cars don't really know how to get the best from a manual and the PDK makes them feel a faster and a better driver.
Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
This^^ a lot. Especially the bit I've bolded.Nothing wrong in that if they are happy, so NO wrong box imo if your skills are lacking a bit. And it allows you to enjoy your car more.
I bought my Cayman R with PDK because I wanted it for sprinting and it is faster than a manual. Also, no air con, bucket seats, PCCB and sports exhaust. The car is immense and beat a GT3RS and a GT3 by over 1.25 seconds at the last sprint I did in May. No regrets. Absolutely the right car for the job.
ORD said:
Will, you are, despite what you say, arguing that the popularity of PDK is evidence that it is good.
You are not trying to show that PDK is popular (which is common ground) but rather that it is good, and you are relying on its popularity in support of that proposition.
If you were relying on the argument that PDK is popular because it is good, that would make no sense when it is common ground that PDK is good but not that it is popular. At best, it would be relying on what you have to prove (goodness).
The argument is something like this:-
(1) PDK is popular.
(2) Good things are popular (and vice-versa)
(3) Accordingly, PDK is good.
cmoose's point is that proposition (2) is bks, which it is.
I think the main problem with this and cmoose's argument is that it doesn't offer anything which supports or proves merit. You're shooting down popularity as a measurement of good or merit-worthy but not suggesting anything else in its place. This in turn implies that only you know what factors denote merit and therefore smacks of extraordinary arrogance.You are not trying to show that PDK is popular (which is common ground) but rather that it is good, and you are relying on its popularity in support of that proposition.
If you were relying on the argument that PDK is popular because it is good, that would make no sense when it is common ground that PDK is good but not that it is popular. At best, it would be relying on what you have to prove (goodness).
The argument is something like this:-
(1) PDK is popular.
(2) Good things are popular (and vice-versa)
(3) Accordingly, PDK is good.
cmoose's point is that proposition (2) is b
ks, which it is.It is absolutely reasonable to use popularity to support the proposition that something is good - why? because even if I think something is utterly useless, most people (who have absolute freedom of choice in the items they consume) clearly don't agree with me and have spent their own hard-earned cash to prove it. Since people (by and large) work for their money, the items they spend it one must be perceived to be good value especially if there are other, cheaper options available, that's just basic economics. Why buy any Porsche at all? There are many less expensive options available.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a CR with PDK for the exact reasons that Cmoose has stated, but I also accept that other car enthusiasts might for a number of reasons.
There is no doubt that PDK is faster - I know faster doesn't equal better or more enjoyable but I accept that some people might prefer to focus more on their lines without thinking about changing gear, they might like to change gear mid corner, they might like being the fastest on a track day (or hill climb as somebody mentioned on here earlier), they may drive a lot in town and this is the best compromise - who knows? Tiptronic was a terrible gearbox, but it was never really that popular, whereas now, nearly everybody opts for PDK on the 991 - why is that? because most people think that is good. I may not believe that they are right, I might actually passionately want them to prefer a manual but I must concede that whatever I believe, most people think that PDK is better for them - and they are absolutely correct, it is better for them, but not me.
anonymous said:
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It might make the person who bought the car happy! That's the benefit! You seem to be unable or unwilling to see/accept that people might get their rocks off on a Cayman R/Boxster Spider for different reasons than you would, or indeed I would, somehow meaning that the car has been specced "badly" or they're not enthusiasts. I get that you and I may both refer buckets and a manual, but that doesn't mean that the other choices are not equally valid.Does it matter ?
100 or so people bought a PDK cayman R so it never sold that well from new..
Same can be said for the manual with even less cars sold, what happens though is the people who do want to go faster move onto the next best thing, most people on the forums have moved on from their PDK Spyder and PDK R , the owners you see on forums now are more manual owners, ie people with petrol for blood.
There are no manual R's for sale at the OPC's. But 5 PDK cars. The markets been and gone for PDK in this model, the market for manual is booming for the enthusiasts .
OPC have people names waiting for manual cars to come up for same, the PDK owners have now got PDK turbos or PDK GTS's .
100 or so people bought a PDK cayman R so it never sold that well from new..
Same can be said for the manual with even less cars sold, what happens though is the people who do want to go faster move onto the next best thing, most people on the forums have moved on from their PDK Spyder and PDK R , the owners you see on forums now are more manual owners, ie people with petrol for blood.
There are no manual R's for sale at the OPC's. But 5 PDK cars. The markets been and gone for PDK in this model, the market for manual is booming for the enthusiasts .
OPC have people names waiting for manual cars to come up for same, the PDK owners have now got PDK turbos or PDK GTS's .
mrdemon said:
Does it matter ?
There are no manual R's for sale at the OPC's. But 5 PDK cars. The markets been and gone for PDK in this model, the market for manual is booming for the enthusiasts .
OPC have people names waiting for manual cars to come up for same, the PDK owners have now got PDK turbos or PDK GTS's .
So the manual CR is the the new 7.2 GT3RS There are no manual R's for sale at the OPC's. But 5 PDK cars. The markets been and gone for PDK in this model, the market for manual is booming for the enthusiasts .
OPC have people names waiting for manual cars to come up for same, the PDK owners have now got PDK turbos or PDK GTS's .
Seriously, is the manual car worth more than the PDK, and by how much in your esteemed opinion?
anonymous said:
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By whose definition? yours? mine? Porsche's? This is the point you're missing. I agree that manual suits the car better but that's just my opinion. If PDK were more popular than a manual CR, it would imply that most people felt that PDK suited it better whether or not I agree with them.anonymous said:
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And this is where the arrogance comes in - you're saying that your opinion has greater merit than other's opinions and it's simply not true. You have based your argument on the premise that you have "objectively analysed the character of the car" - this is complete nonsense and where your argument falls down because your view is purely subjective. Why would a CR be more suited to a manual transmission than any other sports car? F1 transmissions overtook manual sales ages ago in Ferraris - why? because their owners wanted to have a similar feel to changing gear as the company's formula 1 cars. And arguably PDK and other transmissions of this type are more in keeping with their race car heritage than a manual transmission, Because race cars are basically about going as fast as possible whilst incurring as little mechanical damage as possible. The California was offered with a manual transmission and Ferrari sold 0 of them, same goes for the 599 and the open-gate manual was probably a defining characteristic of Ferraris of old. As Mario said, this is a simple preference argument, like colour. I fail to see why you have such difficulty accepting this.Porsches are worse than Dacias.
If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter bks.
People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter b
ks.People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
anonymous said:
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We only say it smacks of arrogance as you refuse to acknowledge that for other people there may be valid reasons to spec the car differently from how you or I would. I'm happy to admit that I think the car is better suited to having a manual, so is everyone else here as far as I can tell. But you're the only one who refuses to acknowledge that people speccing PDK and and a comfy place to put their back side might have a sensible, well founded reason for doing that. Instead you label the spec as inherently wrong. ORD said:
Porsches are worse than Dacias.
If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter bks.
People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
Whilst I see your point there, and to an extent I agree with it, the whole idea of the CR was speed: Lighter, more power, quicker on road and track. Given that, the PDK should be seen as the ideal gearbox given that it makes the car quicker If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter b
ks.People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
ORD said:
Porsches are worse than Dacias.
If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter bks.
People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
Whilst I don't have that opinion and would say that the statement "Porsches are worse than Dacias is "wrong". It really depends on what I'm looking for in a car doesn't it?If that were my opinion, would it be a 'valid' as anyone else's? Nope. It would be utter b
ks.People who say 'everyone's opinion is worth as much' usually have never ever thought about that proposition for more than about 3 seconds.
The Cayman R is so obviously better suited to a manual than a PDK box that it's borderline ridiculous to argue otherwise. Not the same thing as saying some people might have very good reasons to prefer the auto box.
I might well choose a manual even in a car like an S Class but I would accept that it's a slightly incongruous choice.
If what I wanted was cheap motoring, then Porsches would be worse than Dacias. Anybody who believes that their own opinion is more valid than another's hasn't really though about what they are saying. Not everybody cares about enjoyment or driving dynamics or H&T or engine noise or loads of other things that enthusiasts crave in cars. And for those people who just see cars a mobility and nothing else a Dacia would make infinitely more sense than any Porsche.
Mermaid said:
So the manual CR is the the new 7.2 GT3RS
Seriously, is the manual car worth more than the PDK, and by how much in your esteemed opinion?
Nope not the new RS lol but an affordable nice car for the driver imoSeriously, is the manual car worth more than the PDK, and by how much in your esteemed opinion?
People won't pay more for a manual (yet), they are just not going out buying PDK cars.
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