Par for the course? Steering feedback, feel
Discussion
I appreciate steering feel and feedback is part of the 911 "thing".
But I wonder just how much of it I should have, whether my car is typical or otherwise.
Cut to the chase: I bought the car with a very "lively" disposition. Basically it was all over the place on fast and imperfectly surfaced roads.
4 wheel laser geo done, improved beyond recognition. New tyres too (before the geo).
But the steering wheel was not centred precisely at the straight ahead, which bugs me no end, so I took it back, and apart from getting the wheel centred, since this latter involves adjusting tie rods and stuff, the guy practically re adjusted / refined the whole setup.
Fast forward to this year, I replaced the front tie rod ends and despite measuring accurately I took it back for another geo setup to make sure. This was done. So in effect, geo has been seen to 3 times, always to the specs that the computer provides for the model.
The thing is, I have just roadtripped 2,400 miles which involved some motorway driving in Italy, where the roads are less than perfect.
Doing 75, 80 plus is hard work, well, more accurately, tiring for long periods of time. I find myself sitting in the inside lane doing 65 tops just so I can relax. And watch all the Fiats and Citroens shoot past at close to the ton. The reason being the amount of steering feedback I get. Every little imperfection in camber, variability in road surface from one side of the vehicle to another, even the camber of the road, results in steering feedback, which demands correction, or more precisely, resisting. Definitely, it's two hands on the wheel 100% of the time. I think to myself that a goddam Fiat Panda may be a better motorway slogger than the Porsche.
Now don't get me wrong, the "problem" is not a huge one, in fact if you never went anywhere near 70, or did so and more on perfect roads, or for short periods, you may never be aware of it, if it even exists, that is.
And that is the question. Is this behaviour normal? I read that the 991's electric steering, sometimes lambasted, is also described (positively) as taking out the feedback that you don't really want to have, which would describe what I think of this "problem".
So, do I or don't I have a problem? I wonder whether a casual single hand on the wheel while doing 130km/h (that's 81 MPH where legal) on a road that is not billiard table smooth, is possible, or whether I should resign myself to the fact that hey, it's a 911, and the motorway is not really what it's about?
But I wonder just how much of it I should have, whether my car is typical or otherwise.
Cut to the chase: I bought the car with a very "lively" disposition. Basically it was all over the place on fast and imperfectly surfaced roads.
4 wheel laser geo done, improved beyond recognition. New tyres too (before the geo).
But the steering wheel was not centred precisely at the straight ahead, which bugs me no end, so I took it back, and apart from getting the wheel centred, since this latter involves adjusting tie rods and stuff, the guy practically re adjusted / refined the whole setup.
Fast forward to this year, I replaced the front tie rod ends and despite measuring accurately I took it back for another geo setup to make sure. This was done. So in effect, geo has been seen to 3 times, always to the specs that the computer provides for the model.
The thing is, I have just roadtripped 2,400 miles which involved some motorway driving in Italy, where the roads are less than perfect.
Doing 75, 80 plus is hard work, well, more accurately, tiring for long periods of time. I find myself sitting in the inside lane doing 65 tops just so I can relax. And watch all the Fiats and Citroens shoot past at close to the ton. The reason being the amount of steering feedback I get. Every little imperfection in camber, variability in road surface from one side of the vehicle to another, even the camber of the road, results in steering feedback, which demands correction, or more precisely, resisting. Definitely, it's two hands on the wheel 100% of the time. I think to myself that a goddam Fiat Panda may be a better motorway slogger than the Porsche.
Now don't get me wrong, the "problem" is not a huge one, in fact if you never went anywhere near 70, or did so and more on perfect roads, or for short periods, you may never be aware of it, if it even exists, that is.
And that is the question. Is this behaviour normal? I read that the 991's electric steering, sometimes lambasted, is also described (positively) as taking out the feedback that you don't really want to have, which would describe what I think of this "problem".
So, do I or don't I have a problem? I wonder whether a casual single hand on the wheel while doing 130km/h (that's 81 MPH where legal) on a road that is not billiard table smooth, is possible, or whether I should resign myself to the fact that hey, it's a 911, and the motorway is not really what it's about?
Turbo 996.
Who will unfortunately be meaningless, did not do it in the UK.
But it was done with something that looked like this http://www.nuwaycarcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2... and the first time round, every possible adjustment front and rear was seen to.
Who will unfortunately be meaningless, did not do it in the UK.
But it was done with something that looked like this http://www.nuwaycarcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2... and the first time round, every possible adjustment front and rear was seen to.
I too have a 996t, and like all 911's (up to 991), you get a lot of feedback/movement. The correct geo is critical though, and just because the figures may be within the allowable tolerances doesn't mean it's setup correctly. Has it been adjusted so that the numbers are equal (or as close as), or are they just anywhere within the band? The geo can be tweaked within the band to obtain different driving characteristics, but this needs to be done by someone who understands 911's imo. Does the place you went to specialise in Porsche's? Get it right, and you'll be very happy.
I was under the same impression for months, that maybe there was something wrong with my car.
I had Wheel alignement and balancing done twice from Silverstone
once from Chiswick and once from Reading. It wasnt until i went to Reading and had an enthusiastic engineer out with me, who made it crystal clear about the level of feedback you would get - they had teh cars for days, and did numerous tests.
Now... fast forward 6 months - - I could not do without the feedback!!! Driven bentleys, panameras and dont like them, too easy to drive and lack of feel.
I know what you mean when you have to have both hands on steering, my hands go on at 65mph plus!
I hope you get used to it, because it will change the way you feel about it. As in previous post, settings can be changed for your liking, mine is a GTS, and have been told that own GT3 and RS, there is even more steering feedback!
The car is edgy, nervy, dotty, but requires confidence; and when ou get used to it, there is nothing better
I had Wheel alignement and balancing done twice from Silverstone
once from Chiswick and once from Reading. It wasnt until i went to Reading and had an enthusiastic engineer out with me, who made it crystal clear about the level of feedback you would get - they had teh cars for days, and did numerous tests.
Now... fast forward 6 months - - I could not do without the feedback!!! Driven bentleys, panameras and dont like them, too easy to drive and lack of feel.
I know what you mean when you have to have both hands on steering, my hands go on at 65mph plus!
I hope you get used to it, because it will change the way you feel about it. As in previous post, settings can be changed for your liking, mine is a GTS, and have been told that own GT3 and RS, there is even more steering feedback!
The car is edgy, nervy, dotty, but requires confidence; and when ou get used to it, there is nothing better
mr pg said:
I too have a 996t, and like all 911's (up to 991), you get a lot of feedback/movement. The correct geo is critical though, and just because the figures may be within the allowable tolerances doesn't mean it's setup correctly. Has it been adjusted so that the numbers are equal (or as close as), or are they just anywhere within the band? The geo can be tweaked within the band to obtain different driving characteristics, but this needs to be done by someone who understands 911's imo. Does the place you went to specialise in Porsche's? Get it right, and you'll be very happy.
Been thinking about this as a matter of fact.I.e. staying within the tolerances, but ensuring that they are towards the "stable" end of the spectrum. IIRC the car gets more nervous (but turns in better) with more front toe out, (had loads - too much - when I bought it) so I suppose I should have it set to the inwards limits of tolerance.
shaun911 said:
I was under the same impression for months, that maybe there was something wrong with my car.
I had Wheel alignement and balancing done twice from Silverstone
once from Chiswick and once from Reading. It wasnt until i went to Reading and had an enthusiastic engineer out with me, who made it crystal clear about the level of feedback you would get - they had teh cars for days, and did numerous tests.
Now... fast forward 6 months - - I could not do without the feedback!!! Driven bentleys, panameras and dont like them, too easy to drive and lack of feel.
I know what you mean when you have to have both hands on steering, my hands go on at 65mph plus!
I hope you get used to it, because it will change the way you feel about it. As in previous post, settings can be changed for your liking, mine is a GTS, and have been told that own GT3 and RS, there is even more steering feedback!
The car is edgy, nervy, dotty, but requires confidence; and when ou get used to it, there is nothing better
Thanks for this, sort of confirms what I was thinking, that it will never be a hands-off driver. Which isn't what I bought it for of course but after the first hour at the wheel on a boring motorway one does get rather envious of all those everyday-car drivers cruising by with their comparatively lifeless steering!I had Wheel alignement and balancing done twice from Silverstone
once from Chiswick and once from Reading. It wasnt until i went to Reading and had an enthusiastic engineer out with me, who made it crystal clear about the level of feedback you would get - they had teh cars for days, and did numerous tests.
Now... fast forward 6 months - - I could not do without the feedback!!! Driven bentleys, panameras and dont like them, too easy to drive and lack of feel.
I know what you mean when you have to have both hands on steering, my hands go on at 65mph plus!
I hope you get used to it, because it will change the way you feel about it. As in previous post, settings can be changed for your liking, mine is a GTS, and have been told that own GT3 and RS, there is even more steering feedback!
The car is edgy, nervy, dotty, but requires confidence; and when ou get used to it, there is nothing better
996TT02 said:
Thanks for this, sort of confirms what I was thinking, that it will never be a hands-off driver. Which isn't what I bought it for of course but after the first hour at the wheel on a boring motorway one does get rather envious of all those everyday-car drivers cruising by with their comparatively lifeless steering!
More times than I can remember I've spent 12 or more hours behind the wheel of my 03 Turbo -- stopping only long enough for more fuel -- and I don't experience any nervousness on the part of the car. Doesn't require a death grip but it is not a hands off driver by any stretch of the imagination. If you want a hands off driver a Porsche is not your car.Assuming the tires are not something weird -- on my Turbo (and Boxster) I use only N-rated tires and do not mix N-numbers or brands -- and the tires are properly inflated -- for the Turbo the 39 front and 44 rear inflation numbers are for a fully loaded vehicle so you might want to reduce those pressures by several PSI -- I think the alignment needs attention.
There are various opinions on alignment. I always opt for the one that is the least aggressive alignment -- minimal toe in at the front and rear (but *no* toe out, especially at the front tires!) -- and this results in a car that is quite responsive but not at all twitchy. Tire life is impressive with the rear tires easy making it to 20K miles (or more) and the fronts lasting double that. The front tires would go even more miles but by 40K miles they are hard and noisy and slick (from heat cycling) so I replace them along with the rears when the rears are done.
I stressed no toe out above. I inadvertently managed to introduce some mild toe out at the front wheels -- late one night pulled into a hotel parking lot and just bumped the front tires against a low curb edge enough it proved to affect the front toe -- and the car developed a noise that had me suspecting a wheel bearing. Had the car checked out and the tech's diagnosis was the noise was coming from the front tires. He pointed to the tread surface and told me to give it a feel and sure enough I could feel the feathering. After I got the car home I had it realigned and after a week or two of use the tire noise subsided as the front tires adapted to the their new (and correct) alignment.
"Driving enthusiasts" sometimes like toe out at the front as it makes the car more responsive to turn in which on the track might be acceptable. On the road it can result in a very twitchy car and the thing darts all over the road.
996TT02 said:
Aye, I assumed toe out at the front since the front wheels are driven, but checking the specs, this is not the case.
You also probably have better roads than Italian ones.
I think I will try set the car up with max toe IN within specs to make it as stable as possible.
You can ask for max toe if you want. I think it a mistake. The front wheels are driven but only between 5% and 40% of the torque is directed to the front wheels and that 40% number is only at around 150mph from what I gather.You also probably have better roads than Italian ones.
I think I will try set the car up with max toe IN within specs to make it as stable as possible.
I have had my Turbo given the max toe -- unbeknownst to me -- and as a result had the rear tires worn out in 8K miles. Worn out because the inner edges were worn down to beyond the wear bars to the material under the tread. The car didn't feel any more stable with this toe in than it did when I first got it aligned with minimal toe in. Nor did it feel any less (or more) stable after I replaced the worn rear tires and had the car given another alignment this time like the first one with minimal toe in.
I have never been on Italian roads (Switzerland, Netherlands, UK roads yes, but not Italian roads), but I would not be afraid to say that at least some of the roads I've been on in every state I've been in have as bad of roads as anything Italy has to offer. While every region has its good roads, they all have their bad roads, too.
To help with the diagnosis, could you let us know:
i) How many miles/kilometers the car has done.
ii) Whether you have driven another car of the same type (i.e. 996T) before.
iii) How much other car driving experience you have and what type of vehicles it was in.
iii) Whether there's anything to indicate any of the suspension components have been replaced at any stage.
My initial reaction to your problem is that there may be one or more components in the suspension which is/are worn and which allow the wheels to move (in toe, or another dimension) when your car traverses a bump or camber. Understanding the answers to the above questions could help us to home in on the likely area of the problem.
i) How many miles/kilometers the car has done.
ii) Whether you have driven another car of the same type (i.e. 996T) before.
iii) How much other car driving experience you have and what type of vehicles it was in.
iii) Whether there's anything to indicate any of the suspension components have been replaced at any stage.
My initial reaction to your problem is that there may be one or more components in the suspension which is/are worn and which allow the wheels to move (in toe, or another dimension) when your car traverses a bump or camber. Understanding the answers to the above questions could help us to home in on the likely area of the problem.
9xxNick said:
To help with the diagnosis, could you let us know:
i) How many miles/kilometers the car has done.
>>67k (miles)
ii) Whether you have driven another car of the same type (i.e. 996T) before.
>>No
iii) How much other car driving experience you have and what type of vehicles it was in.
>>Loads but only had a 911 for a very very short period before. Only other Porsche owned for a while was a 944.
iii) Whether there's anything to indicate any of the suspension components have been replaced at any stage.
My initial reaction to your problem is that there may be one or more components in the suspension which is/are worn and which allow the wheels to move (in toe, or another dimension) when your car traverses a bump or camber. Understanding the answers to the above questions could help us to home in on the likely area of the problem.
>>Coffin arms at one point by previous owner, and I have just replaced the track rod ends for a very very minor play issue with one, which previously passed MOT anyway, and have just done another MOT and nothing untoward was picked up. I don't feel the issue (again, if it exists, or perhaps is typical) is related to suspension issues, I am very sensitive to this sort of stuff and can generally tell which tyre is slightly underinflated just by driving a car. But I can't exclude anything so if you have any suggestions let me know, thanks.
i) How many miles/kilometers the car has done.
>>67k (miles)
ii) Whether you have driven another car of the same type (i.e. 996T) before.
>>No
iii) How much other car driving experience you have and what type of vehicles it was in.
>>Loads but only had a 911 for a very very short period before. Only other Porsche owned for a while was a 944.
iii) Whether there's anything to indicate any of the suspension components have been replaced at any stage.
My initial reaction to your problem is that there may be one or more components in the suspension which is/are worn and which allow the wheels to move (in toe, or another dimension) when your car traverses a bump or camber. Understanding the answers to the above questions could help us to home in on the likely area of the problem.
>>Coffin arms at one point by previous owner, and I have just replaced the track rod ends for a very very minor play issue with one, which previously passed MOT anyway, and have just done another MOT and nothing untoward was picked up. I don't feel the issue (again, if it exists, or perhaps is typical) is related to suspension issues, I am very sensitive to this sort of stuff and can generally tell which tyre is slightly underinflated just by driving a car. But I can't exclude anything so if you have any suggestions let me know, thanks.
Sounds like there is some wear in the suspension somewhere. Have you had the coffin arms checked? My 996 C4S was all over the road until I had the coffin arms replaced and a full GEO done. The car is now perfectly stable, and I mean 130mph sweepers with no movement at all. The 911 should give you plenty of feedback, but not scare you. Get your suspension checked out by someone who knows 911's.
Shurv said:
Sounds like there is some wear in the suspension somewhere. Have you had the coffin arms checked? My 996 C4S was all over the road until I had the coffin arms replaced and a full GEO done. The car is now perfectly stable, and I mean 130mph sweepers with no movement at all. The 911 should give you plenty of feedback, but not scare you. Get your suspension checked out by someone who knows 911's.
Mine is perfectly stable... as long as the road is perfectly smooth. Unfortunately not many are (and some are much worse) but it seems to cause no issues to drivers of non sporting cars. Was this also the case with yours, or was it still all over the place even on very good roads?I will however jack up the suspension and have a good push and pull session (which was how I discovered the track rod end issue).
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