What a dreadful experience
Discussion
A few months back, a good pal of mine was after a nice tidy little 964 C2 that are as we all know becoming harder to find. He popped along to a well-known specialist who happen to be having an open day. He had had up until then a decent relationship with this dealer who he had bought and sold a couple of 911’s to and from previously.
He happen to spot a nice little guards red 964 C2 left hooker in the yard – and inquired. The proprietor said I have no idea what I am going to do with that but I am thinking of going right through the car and then retailing it at around £40k. My pal said no thanks that’s too rich for me and moved on. After another inquiry with the proprietor, an agreed amount of £27,500 was negotiated plus an engine rebuild that was quoted tops at £6k(there was a good friend of his with him another 911 fan who was witness to all that was said and agreed upon) That deal seemed to work and my mate sent over the £27,500. He had a couple of calls here and there to say look the steering rack is shot as is the air con compressor so we can fit reconditioned items for just under £1k…my mate said yes fine. He knew at some point that other bits would probably need doing but just wanted to do that in his own time – he had also separately purchased a set of rear lights as is common with 964 they can look very tatty after a few yrs.
My mate was very relaxed at this point was in no rush and so just went with it. He was called in to a ‘costs meeting’ some 3 months later – something he got small alarmed at - as far as he was concerned he had an agreed amount in place. He was shocked and totally baffled when the mechanic said look mate you are running at over DOUBLE the agreed £6k. At which point my mate said hang on this is not what I agreed to and the mechanic even said about his own boss ‘he should not be telling customers that sort of cost’. My mate said look this now does not work I turned the car down at £40k all sorted why would I agree to it with just the engine in bits? -forgetting anything else like suspension, possible clutch, shot brakes etc and you guys are specialists in these cars how can you not know?
The proprietor then seem to come into his own…avoiding calls, sending an extremely threatening letter and even saying that 996RS you have I’ll sell it for you and we’ll get more for it – but that makes no difference to your 964 costs…he said he was also not in a position to give him his money back as the money was now in other areas and he had school fees to pay for!!!!
Sadly the only option my mate had was to pay for the car to be transported out of the dealer as the bloke had his £27,500 plus his car in bits. No compromise was ever offered and to reiterate the point, to someone who had been a decent previous customer. He has since found a very good dealer who updates him all the time and tells him exactly what is going on. Nothing hidden although sadly he has also said that there were fuel lines missing when all the parts were thoroughly checked and the boxes gone through - don’t suppose you know what happened to those do you?
I think it is totally short sighted of dealers that should know better to behave in this way…does not matter who you are our community may of got bigger but there are still countless groups, threads and social media and once certain people become tainted then it very quickly ruins their reputation.
He happen to spot a nice little guards red 964 C2 left hooker in the yard – and inquired. The proprietor said I have no idea what I am going to do with that but I am thinking of going right through the car and then retailing it at around £40k. My pal said no thanks that’s too rich for me and moved on. After another inquiry with the proprietor, an agreed amount of £27,500 was negotiated plus an engine rebuild that was quoted tops at £6k(there was a good friend of his with him another 911 fan who was witness to all that was said and agreed upon) That deal seemed to work and my mate sent over the £27,500. He had a couple of calls here and there to say look the steering rack is shot as is the air con compressor so we can fit reconditioned items for just under £1k…my mate said yes fine. He knew at some point that other bits would probably need doing but just wanted to do that in his own time – he had also separately purchased a set of rear lights as is common with 964 they can look very tatty after a few yrs.
My mate was very relaxed at this point was in no rush and so just went with it. He was called in to a ‘costs meeting’ some 3 months later – something he got small alarmed at - as far as he was concerned he had an agreed amount in place. He was shocked and totally baffled when the mechanic said look mate you are running at over DOUBLE the agreed £6k. At which point my mate said hang on this is not what I agreed to and the mechanic even said about his own boss ‘he should not be telling customers that sort of cost’. My mate said look this now does not work I turned the car down at £40k all sorted why would I agree to it with just the engine in bits? -forgetting anything else like suspension, possible clutch, shot brakes etc and you guys are specialists in these cars how can you not know?
The proprietor then seem to come into his own…avoiding calls, sending an extremely threatening letter and even saying that 996RS you have I’ll sell it for you and we’ll get more for it – but that makes no difference to your 964 costs…he said he was also not in a position to give him his money back as the money was now in other areas and he had school fees to pay for!!!!
Sadly the only option my mate had was to pay for the car to be transported out of the dealer as the bloke had his £27,500 plus his car in bits. No compromise was ever offered and to reiterate the point, to someone who had been a decent previous customer. He has since found a very good dealer who updates him all the time and tells him exactly what is going on. Nothing hidden although sadly he has also said that there were fuel lines missing when all the parts were thoroughly checked and the boxes gone through - don’t suppose you know what happened to those do you?
I think it is totally short sighted of dealers that should know better to behave in this way…does not matter who you are our community may of got bigger but there are still countless groups, threads and social media and once certain people become tainted then it very quickly ruins their reputation.
berty37 said:
Adam B said:
symmpathies to the guy, but who in their right mind enters into a deal like this without a written contract/agreement?
Yes point taken Adam..I just guess as he had dealt with him on a few occasions he had built up a level of trust...sadly seems to mean nothing nowadays.6 of 1... here I'm afraid IMO. The Dealer has been sharp however.
Robbo66 said:
Berty, I would have questioned £6k for a ball park engine re-build too, and unreality if your friend was not that experienced, he should have checked this as a matter of course. Rebuilds can run in to 10's of thousands, so at £6k I would have been very suspicious.
6 of 1... here I'm afraid IMO. The Dealer has been sharp however.
As he did too, but these chaps do call themselves specialists so they should know..also worth mentioning and yes I know its not a 'one size fits all' as someone above said you never know what you gonna find..this car has done 60k miles plus I know my mate would of been happy to pay a little more and tried to negoatiate a little further but he said actually now its gonna be way over that.6 of 1... here I'm afraid IMO. The Dealer has been sharp however.
Robbo66 said:
Berty, I would have questioned £6k for a ball park engine re-build too, and unreality if your friend was not that experienced, he should have checked this as a matter of course. Rebuilds can run in to 10's of thousands, so at £6k I would have been very suspicious.
6 of 1... here I'm afraid IMO. The Dealer has been sharp however.
standard top end rebuild should be around this number. Doesnt seem outrageous given you would have thought using their own resources as part of sale it should be a bit cheaper. 6 of 1... here I'm afraid IMO. The Dealer has been sharp however.
I have a feeling I know who this is (person impacted - nice guy) and who the firm is you are referring too. Shame as they should know better. Also - unfortunately do agree with above. Definitely should have got it in writing. Live and learn
[quote=ras62]Where have the extra cost come from? Are they engine rebuild related or are they on other items not agreed between the parties?[/quote
All engine related that is all he ever agreed to - he was aware the car would prob need other work he just wanted the engine sorted..these blokes must have had a fair idea what needed doing when they bought it...sounds like they had the poor bloke by the plums...oh its in bits now he got to pay for it...charged him £4k to strip it down without doing anything which they demanded straight away otherwise they wouldn't release the car and then when it was up in the air said well you better hurry up and get it before we add on storage costs. I never liked the bloke personally but my mate respected his business and had done a few trades with him..even more why I feel gutted for him and outrage at that turd of a dealer.
All engine related that is all he ever agreed to - he was aware the car would prob need other work he just wanted the engine sorted..these blokes must have had a fair idea what needed doing when they bought it...sounds like they had the poor bloke by the plums...oh its in bits now he got to pay for it...charged him £4k to strip it down without doing anything which they demanded straight away otherwise they wouldn't release the car and then when it was up in the air said well you better hurry up and get it before we add on storage costs. I never liked the bloke personally but my mate respected his business and had done a few trades with him..even more why I feel gutted for him and outrage at that turd of a dealer.
If they have opened the engine and found worn cylinders/pistons/camshafts etc then of course they would need replacing and the build costs would escalate. These are the unknowns associated with a rebuild and with respect to your friend he should have been advised of this in advance. I would not expect to see a dealer taking on those costs and they are quite entitled to be reimbursed the cost they have incurred for the removal and teardown before returning the car. It sounds like poor communication by both buyer and seller but its not the end of the world.
Edited to add. Why was your friend discussing cost with a mechanic and not the proprietor who one assumes agreed to the deal in the first place?
Edited to add. Why was your friend discussing cost with a mechanic and not the proprietor who one assumes agreed to the deal in the first place?
Edited by ras62 on Monday 13th October 16:06
'and with respect to your friend he should have been advised of this in advance.'
Advised by who Pistonheads? no from the dealer he was buying the car off...a friend of his in the 964 owners club had a top end rebuild that cost £7k so the costs involved at the time of the deal (important that) were not wide of the mark. He fully accepts had the dealer whom as I keep repeating is supposed to be an air cooled specialist, had said look mate you could be running into 40/45k that gives the customer the opportunity to weigh it up and move on if he so decides .He had already turned the car down in the first instance when the dealer had said £40k with 'me going right through it'
Whether you think the original quote (which actually was £4-6k so my mate had already put down what he thought was his worse case) was wrong that is not the fault of the customer.
edited to your question. The original deal was done with the proprietor, he then got the mechanic to take over..not sure what difference it makes..hardly a chinese wall in place. This dealer has been buying/selling and getting cars repaired/rebuilt for years.
Advised by who Pistonheads? no from the dealer he was buying the car off...a friend of his in the 964 owners club had a top end rebuild that cost £7k so the costs involved at the time of the deal (important that) were not wide of the mark. He fully accepts had the dealer whom as I keep repeating is supposed to be an air cooled specialist, had said look mate you could be running into 40/45k that gives the customer the opportunity to weigh it up and move on if he so decides .He had already turned the car down in the first instance when the dealer had said £40k with 'me going right through it'
Whether you think the original quote (which actually was £4-6k so my mate had already put down what he thought was his worse case) was wrong that is not the fault of the customer.
edited to your question. The original deal was done with the proprietor, he then got the mechanic to take over..not sure what difference it makes..hardly a chinese wall in place. This dealer has been buying/selling and getting cars repaired/rebuilt for years.
ras62 said:
Your friend should have been advised by the dealer imo as sometimes costs can escalate as sadly seems to be the case here. Why would I not deal with the mechanic? He has no authority were cost is concerned, if a deal was to be done it would be with the proprietor.
Ras that is what I am saying the dealer should of advised him and given him the opportunity with all cards on the table..He dealt with proprietor first and foremost only did the mechanic get involved when he called him in with the aforementioned 'budget costs' meet..and why wasn't the proprietor present then?..he certainly should of been. This is not a 'one off' where a customer tries to have an uneducated dealer over mate..he had a working relationship with him that had built over a couple of years even more reason to feel hard done by I think. berty37 said:
Whether you think the original quote (which actually was £4-6k so my mate had already put down what he thought was his worse case) was wrong that is not the fault of the customer.
agreed, if the dealer had send it would cost a tenner it is not your friend's fault - his only mistake was in trusting the guy and not insisting the arrangement was confirmed by letter or email so he had a legal remedy if dealer reneged on the deal.If an experienced specialist dealer agrees something, whether it's in writing or verbally, and then screws their costings up while doing the work, then they should bear the cost. SIMPLE.
It's not the customers fault they screwed up, irrespective of how much the customer did or didn't know, or what their experience level is. It's a simple fact of keeping to the original agreement.
Sounds like the customer knows their stuff a decent amount having bought/sold from the dealer a few times already and wasn't an idiot if they had turned down the car at £40k 'fully gone through' instead taking the option for £27,500 + £6000 'tops' engine rebuild (which is more than sufficient to estimate for top end).
Simple case of dealer integrity.....and total lack of it...word gets around though....and with social media and the like today they will lose an exponential amount of customers because of it...
It's not the customers fault they screwed up, irrespective of how much the customer did or didn't know, or what their experience level is. It's a simple fact of keeping to the original agreement.
Sounds like the customer knows their stuff a decent amount having bought/sold from the dealer a few times already and wasn't an idiot if they had turned down the car at £40k 'fully gone through' instead taking the option for £27,500 + £6000 'tops' engine rebuild (which is more than sufficient to estimate for top end).
Simple case of dealer integrity.....and total lack of it...word gets around though....and with social media and the like today they will lose an exponential amount of customers because of it...
Thanks RS. I am pleased you see this for what it is too... Him being my best mate of course I will support him but I can honestly say he is not a 'something for nothing chap' he even admits himself that the times he dealt with the guy before he probably paid over the odds and sold too cheaply but he accepted it as he trusted the bloke...
I just think it is such a shame when something like this happens we are not allowed to post who the alleged specialist is just so other members are aware how some of these so called specialist operate, and if the named specialist have a problem with that they can come on the forum and explain there side of the story and let us decide if we would want to use them or not.
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