Ferrari Autocars drivers car of the year.

[sidicks]

APOLO1 said:

PDKS, is worth a car length under breaking. Fact....but the main point for the PDK is that all the systems rws, etc, work at the optimum 100% of the time, takes out the human inpt error....

Isn't it "under acceleration", due to the increased time at which the clutch is engaged?

[mrdemon]

I think you BUY speed, So if YOU want SPEED then double clutch is the way to GET SPEED.

faster is not always better and here lies the problem

Auto are easier to drive, and make 70% drivers into 85% drivers.
Auto's give you less interaction
Auto's on a slow car give you so much thinking time, you start to plan your dinner that day while you are driving.

all Super cars are too fast for the road any way so you may as well have the fastest. more expensive better looking red one.
The 458S is a nice status look at me car over the GT3 if that's your bag, look Nike sell £100 trainers, people buy them to let other know they have £100 trainers.
same happens with cars.

the 458S is £250k speced up so the status you get from that is more than the £120k GT3.

many many things play into what people want, how people drive, or what people want to be seen in.

I try and get people to try a Cayman, some just say "I want a 911" and that's what they buy.
I would never buy a base 911 over a Cayman, but then I live with the "not a real 911, or cannot afford a 911" comments one gets.

we have dream lotto car stables the 458S would get a slot in mine over the 991 GT3, that's just me and the reason does not even matter.

other wise we would all own the same cars.

[APOLO1]

sidicks said:

Isn't it "under acceleration", due to the increased time at which the clutch is engaged?

de-acceleration also, reaction time, right gear etc , optimum rev range 100% of the time, manual box not even on the same planet.. though I get the interaction point, ie something rewarding about having to change gear and all that, but the PDKs is also great fun.....

[Alpinestars]

mrdemon said:

I think you BUY speed, So if YOU want SPEED then double clutch is the way to GET SPEED.

faster is not always better and here lies the problem

Auto are easier to drive, and make 70% drivers into 85% drivers.
Auto's give you less interaction
Auto's on a slow car give you so much thinking time, you start to plan your dinner that day while you are driving.

all Super cars are too fast for the road any way so you may as well have the fastest. more expensive better looking red one.
The 458S is a nice status look at me car over the GT3 if that's your bag, look Nike sell £100 trainers, people buy them to let other know they have £100 trainers.
same happens with cars.

the 458S is £250k speced up so the status you get from that is more than the £120k GT3.

many many things play into what people want, how people drive, or what people want to be seen in.

I try and get people to try a Cayman, some just say "I want a 911" and that's what they buy.
I would never buy a base 911 over a Cayman, but then I live with the "not a real 911, or cannot afford a 911" comments one gets.

we have dream lotto car stables the 458S would get a slot in mine over the 991 GT3, that's just me and the reason does not even matter.

other wise we would all own the same cars.

I agree with this. We all have different reasons for buying cars, and for me, fastest is not always best and most expensive is not always best.

[isaldiri]

V8KSN said:

Sorry, I was paraphrasing mrdemon.

What I was trying to say was CH mentioned in an article that the engine of the new GT3 is so free-revving that it would not work with a manual gearbox as you would be contantly changing gears to keep the engine in the sweet spot.

Perhaps that just means Porsche should have extended the power band of the engine

But I agree with apolo1 (for once) anyway. The car was designed with pdk and all the various electronic systems in mind and one couldn't simply shoehorn a manual box into the current car and expect it to work as well.

[franki68]

isaldiri said:

Perhaps that just means Porsche should have extended the power band of the engine

But I agree with apolo1 (for once) anyway. The car was designed with pdk and all the various electronic systems in mind and one couldn't simply shoehorn a manual box into the current car and expect it to work as well.

As seen with BMW ,when the last m5 (v10 one) was released they did that crap SMG box only,but the US market wanted a manual ,so they grudgingly released one and it was woeful .The cae had been designed to work with the SMG

[Mario149]

MDahmen said:

Having said that, I am sure I would enjoy driving a 991 GT3, just maybe not as much as one with a 6-speed manual. I do not drive on track and using my left foot and right hand just gives me that little extra interaction to keep me entertained even when driving on a boring road / just going to the shops. It is all about personal preferences and not about which one is better or worse.

Having taken my 7.1 GT3 on track for the first time the other week, I can totally see why Porsche went the way of the PDK for the 991 GT3. Given how quick my GT3 was and how pointless I think it is for the road, the 991 GT3 is even less relevant for the road. Since it's a track weapon then, you might as well give it the most tech to get round as quickly as possible. And if that helps average people like me drive it faster/better, it's a bonus. My experience so far suggests that having a manual gearbox only really is a bonus for a car where a decent amount of performance is usable on the road and needs skill to extract as it loads your workload up even more making it more satisfying. In a GT3 you barely have to work to make progress at licence losing speeds anyway, so you're not really getting that much extra from a manual gearchange dare I say it. Put a PDK in my 993 and I'd be very upset, put a PDK in mt 7.1 GT3 and I wouldn't care nearly as much.

All of that said as someone who thinks that, from a purist PoV in my heart, the ever advancing tech displayed on the 991 GT3 is not necessarily a good thing and that having a manual gearbox for driving on track IS the way to go as driving a car like that SHOULD be hard and require more skill than most of us have.

[av185]

V8KSN said:

Have you thought that maybe the same is true of the 991 GT3? Its a very very quick car (maybe too quick?) and all contemporary reviews state its an amazing acomplished machine and even Chris Harris says it would not work with a manual gearbox so maybe, like you say, this car is also too fast for manual input.

As a side note, why would you choose a 458 over a GT3? They are both far too quick for the road, they both have automatic gearboxes and they are both swimming in electronic assistance.

I agree with most in that the 458S is stunning and would certainly have a place in my fantasy garage as possibly the ultimate track weapon, perhaps just ahead of the GT3, should money be no object.

But as a usable daily driver the 458S appears way too hardcore and for that reason I would take a standard Italia or stick with the best of both worlds I.e. the GT3........at less than half the price of the Speciale.

[Alpinestars]

The 458S is definitely not too hardcore for the road. Extremely compliant and civilised. That's part of its problem for me.

[mrdemon]

I was shocked how normal it was

thought it was going to be hardcore, but it's quite usable.

[Slippydiff]

Alpinestars said:

The 458S is definitely not too hardcore for the road. Extremely compliant and civilised. That's part of its problem for me.

Not a problem, sir should by a 458 Challenge, make it road legal and enjoy the challenge (no pun intended) of driving it on the road. I reckon it'll be more than hardcore enough to make it interesting (ie less compliant and civilised)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5YhYXtFfaM

As for what Mario said earlier about his Gen 1 997 GT3 being too accomplished, I've said as much for some time. Having owned two of them, I found they were just too accomplished to make them enjoyable to drive on the road quickly.

Whilst they're a wonderful car (and a bit of bargain currently IMO) they're just not "challenging" or put crudely, interesting enough, to drive at 60-70% on the road. Which from my perspective is where the 996 GT versions excel (as do the air-cooled cars) And at the risk of inflaming another topic that's been done to death, the Cayman R is just too accomplished to be fun and challenging at sane speeds on the road (or let's put it another way "I" found it just too accomplished to be interesting the majority of the time)

As ever, it's horses for courses, some want to get from A to B as quickly as possible, and thus outright speed, grip etc is their primary concern (buy a 996/997/991 Turbo or a Datsun GTR I say) However, I'm happy to enjoy a larger slice of tactility and engagement and in the process forego ultimate ground covering/A to B ability as a consequence.

I suspect the novelty of a 458S would wear thin once the initial honeymoon period has passed, unless of course you were to make frequent forays to mainland europe or do a good few trackdays every year. Both raise the ugly spectre of putting miles on them and the subsequent impact on depreciation .........

I seriously toyed with the idea of a 360 CS late last year/early this. After much cogitating I decided ownership looked to be too much like hard work compared with that of a GT2/3 RS Porsche. The thought of using one's annual mileage "allowance" (be it real or imagined) on a 3-4k mile eurohoon in a 360CS (and the resultant depreciation/running costs as a result) left me very cold indeed.

[MDahmen]

I think that Challenge is not road legal, but it does sound and look brilliant.

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

I suspect the novelty of a 458S would wear thin once the initial honeymoon period has passed, unless of course you were to make frequent forays to mainland europe or do a good few trackdays every year. Both raise the ugly spectre of putting miles on them and the subsequent impact on depreciation .........

I seriously toyed with the idea of a 360 CS late last year/early this. After much cogitating I decided ownership looked to be too much like hard work compared with that of a GT2/3 RS Porsche. The thought of using one's annual mileage "allowance" (be it real or imagined) on a 3-4k mile eurohoon in a 360CS (and the resultant depreciation/running costs as a result) left me very cold indeed.

That is more a function of the prices of the cars though I would have thought. RHD 360CS are now close to the £200k mark I'm given to believe and there pretty much isn't a single car of that price range that is not price sensitive to mileage, or at least one that isn't does not come easily to mind.

Now that the prices of the 7.2 RS (and the 996 RS as well per JZM cars) are getting there, I would be very surprised if they (rather unfortunately) didn't start to get much more price sensitive to mileage compared to what has been the case previously.

[APOLO1]

isaldiri said:

That is more a function of the prices of the cars though I would have thought. RHD 360CS are now close to the £200k mark I'm given to believe and there pretty much isn't a single car of that price range that is not price sensitive to mileage, or at least one that isn't does not come easily to mind.

Now that the prices of the 7.2 RS (and the 996 RS as well per JZM cars) are getting there, I would be very surprised if they (rather unfortunately) didn't start to get much more price sensitive to mileage compared to what has been the case previously.

RHD 360cs, are available much lower than 200k.....also 7.2RS, 996 getting where?
But I agree that the 4.0s have had there day, the new car will be the kid on the block, along with the new engine will be in Motor Sport within the next 2 years..

[Slippydiff]

isaldiri said:

Slippydiff said:

I suspect the novelty of a 458S would wear thin once the initial honeymoon period has passed, unless of course you were to make frequent forays to mainland europe or do a good few trackdays every year. Both raise the ugly spectre of putting miles on them and the subsequent impact on depreciation .........

I seriously toyed with the idea of a 360 CS late last year/early this. After much cogitating I decided ownership looked to be too much like hard work compared with that of a GT2/3 RS Porsche. The thought of using one's annual mileage "allowance" (be it real or imagined) on a 3-4k mile eurohoon in a 360CS (and the resultant depreciation/running costs as a result) left me very cold indeed.

That is more a function of the prices of the cars though I would have thought. RHD 360CS are now close to the £200k mark I'm given to believe and there pretty much isn't a single car of that price range that is not price sensitive to mileage, or at least one that isn't does not come easily to mind.

Now that the prices of the 7.2 RS (and the 996 RS as well per JZM cars) are getting there, I would be very surprised if they (rather unfortunately) didn't start to get much more price sensitive to mileage compared to what has been the case previously.

APOLO1 said:

RHD 360cs, are available much lower than 200k.....?

^ This. I was looking at LHD mainland european CS's, the best were £125k, those with less than perfect service history a good £25-30K cheaper. Do I regret not jumping ? Not really, my 964 RS is increasing in value nicely, moreso than a LHD CS I'd guess.

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

I was looking at LHD mainland european CS's, the best were £125k, those with less than perfect service history a good £25-30K cheaper. Do I regret not jumping ? Not really, my 964 RS is increasing in value nicely, moreso than a LHD CS I'd guess.

Ah was mistaken about CS prices then, one hears a lot of random noise about RHD CS prices so goodness knows where they really are.

I still do think though that given where the 7.2RS and 6RS prices are now (~£150k), driving them on a few eurohoons as you put it would probably be not far off the depreciation hit, if at all, of a Ferrari of equivalent cost say a CS/scuderia/458.

Which is incidentially is why I try my best not to look at prices of any car I've bought and merely wait for an unpleasant surprise when I sell it.. ignorance is bliss sometimes and I'd hate for my enjoyment of a car be coloured by any perceived hit in valuation from the usage...