997 bore scoring found..
Discussion
I think I'd put my neck out and say there is an adequate amount info about it on this site, a Google search shows several large and informative threads. I can see this thread is specifically about bore scoring however it gets mentioned on a disproportionate number of threads and it's spoiling people's enjoyment of their cars with worry.
It's like registering for a foodie forum, and posting on every thread about heart disease.
It's like registering for a foodie forum, and posting on every thread about heart disease.
There is no easy answer to the issue of informing people about the potential problems with a product.
If no one informed anyone else there would be far less arranging some form of protective cover and suppliers would be able to continue making out they know nothing of the problem, additionally charging for an initial strip down to investigate (when they no dam well what is wrong already, that it is the manufacturers fault and unnecessary) and to offer the only alternative anyone would know about - the replacement of a new engine often at a greater cost than the car is worth.
The information provided on the Internet however enables those needing help to assess where to go and consider various less expensive alternatives, which puts them in a stronger position and limits exploitation.
It is always stated that the incidence of bore scoring is still relatively small but it is a devastating potential cost if it happens to you and so to inform in advance can only help.
This may well reduce the pleasure of those preferring to put their heads in the sand and drive around as if nothing is ever going to go wrong with their car - but no one if forcing them to read such posts nor wearing them down to arrange some form of protective cover - and if their preferred way to exist is to not insure their health, their cars, their houses or their travel costs (because it can spoil their enjoyment) then they can only have themselves to blame if they get caught out!
The problems were not caused by those trying to help owners find better solutions (if it happens to them) but were caused by a manufacturer who has so far dome little to help.
All round the World, small private businesses have been trying to help by investing proportionately large sums in viable solutions and the public should IMHO show more appreciation for their efforts without which there would be no good solution except fitting the same engine with the same weaknesses that it likely to fail again (just like it already has).
Even more good has come out of this because long term all Porsche's depreciate, then level off and then ice examples appreciate.
Now that there are permanent solutions that render the engines able to be rebuilt to eliminate those problems and therefore last even longer (and at lower prices than simply replacing the engine with the same one from the manufacturer) the long term outcome for this superb model range looks extremely healthy.
I find it ironic for owners to have a go at the very people providing excellent solutions while it seems preferring to sustain the blind reputation of the people that caused the problems and offer the least effective and most expensive solutions to their own problems that you end up paying through the nose for!
If reading about the various issues limits or creates displeasure there is a simple answer - don't!
Baz
If no one informed anyone else there would be far less arranging some form of protective cover and suppliers would be able to continue making out they know nothing of the problem, additionally charging for an initial strip down to investigate (when they no dam well what is wrong already, that it is the manufacturers fault and unnecessary) and to offer the only alternative anyone would know about - the replacement of a new engine often at a greater cost than the car is worth.
The information provided on the Internet however enables those needing help to assess where to go and consider various less expensive alternatives, which puts them in a stronger position and limits exploitation.
It is always stated that the incidence of bore scoring is still relatively small but it is a devastating potential cost if it happens to you and so to inform in advance can only help.
This may well reduce the pleasure of those preferring to put their heads in the sand and drive around as if nothing is ever going to go wrong with their car - but no one if forcing them to read such posts nor wearing them down to arrange some form of protective cover - and if their preferred way to exist is to not insure their health, their cars, their houses or their travel costs (because it can spoil their enjoyment) then they can only have themselves to blame if they get caught out!
The problems were not caused by those trying to help owners find better solutions (if it happens to them) but were caused by a manufacturer who has so far dome little to help.
All round the World, small private businesses have been trying to help by investing proportionately large sums in viable solutions and the public should IMHO show more appreciation for their efforts without which there would be no good solution except fitting the same engine with the same weaknesses that it likely to fail again (just like it already has).
Even more good has come out of this because long term all Porsche's depreciate, then level off and then ice examples appreciate.
Now that there are permanent solutions that render the engines able to be rebuilt to eliminate those problems and therefore last even longer (and at lower prices than simply replacing the engine with the same one from the manufacturer) the long term outcome for this superb model range looks extremely healthy.
I find it ironic for owners to have a go at the very people providing excellent solutions while it seems preferring to sustain the blind reputation of the people that caused the problems and offer the least effective and most expensive solutions to their own problems that you end up paying through the nose for!
If reading about the various issues limits or creates displeasure there is a simple answer - don't!
Baz
PP997 - to answer your question, the Turbo does not share the same problems of scored bores etc because it is a completely different engine. It is not an M96 or M97 engine with a turbo bolted on to either side.
But all 996 and certainly 997 Gen 1 cars with a manual gearbox have issues with the gearbox - particularly on 2nd gear. That includes the Turbo, the GT2 and GT3.
The Turbo cars are not without issues and are still high maintenance cars if one wants to keep them in tip-top condition.
But all 996 and certainly 997 Gen 1 cars with a manual gearbox have issues with the gearbox - particularly on 2nd gear. That includes the Turbo, the GT2 and GT3.
The Turbo cars are not without issues and are still high maintenance cars if one wants to keep them in tip-top condition.
I don't think anyone takes issue with genuine owners speaking of their actual experiences to highlight and inform others about problems that obviously exist with these cars. What does wind people up is when internet users and 'pseudo experts' (not directed at Mr Hartech obviously..) then go on and on about these issues every time the car is mentioned so that any sense of proportion is completely and utterly lost. Mr moose is an unfortunate example of this (and I do so hate to single him out..) and seems to think others like me 'get upset' at the mention of the issues when the opposite couldn't be more true, I couldn't care less, other than as I mention any sense of proportion for owners and those thinking of buying the car is lost.
There is an old saying that springs to mind on this whole subject - "of that which you do not know, do not speak..."
There is an old saying that springs to mind on this whole subject - "of that which you do not know, do not speak..."
I am all for discussion of the issue and getting as much technical info out there in the public domain
What I don't agree with are unfounded opinions and speculation, especially those making out that this will affect a large proportion of or even all cars, when as Hartech put above very clearly that the % is small.
I don't agree with the volume of threads on unrelated issues that end up coming back to this issue and putting the fear of God into a potential buyer or new owner, disproportionate to the actual risk of it happening.
This thread is case in point where the OP has had a quick look and taken a few snapshots, no garage diagnosis, seen some marks and assumed the worse, propped up by the usual doom & gloom merchants on here who's views may be skewed by being one of the unlucky ones.
Just because I have read enough about this issue now for me, doesn't mean that my opinion about bringing some balance back to the site and adding some perspective, isn't a good thing.
Here's an example:
"I don't care what any expert says with regards to how good these cars are, because in a nutshell they're crap! A car that costs circa £70,000 should not have so many serious engine failures. I've been trawling through the various internet horror stories regarding the cylinder bore damage caused to the 997's and found that the majority will eventually fail. You're just driving around in ticking time bomb."
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You don't get it do you moose? reread your post above, in the last paragraph you say you don't make irrelevant posts about bore scoring but in the preceeding paragraphs make statements like "bore scoring thing is in my view really bad. Far worse than the IMS problem ever was" and "But I will say the problem is very widespread". Those are all totally meaningless statements not backed up by factual evidence but which sit there for others to repeat as part of the internet washing machine of truth. And so if you repeat something enough times its becomes fact doesn't it. Facts are needed not hysteria.anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's very one sided to analyse the scale of the problem by getting information from garages that address the fault, and forum users who have had issues. Most owners don't use forums at all.
Some owners are completely over the top in how they approach running a car, I remember reading on here about a forum member who spent a fortune (something like £10k?) keeping his 987 Boxster S in 'new' condition for 3 years before trading it in. This might be the same sort of lunatic who would dismiss 3 perfectly good cars showing minutely scored bores that might be good for another 100,000 miles.
Cars for sale might be more likely to have scored bores than 'keepers' too for obvious reasons
A very well respected indy garage owner told me that the boroscope can be very ambiguous anyway as a trickle of oil can appear to be a score, and is highly overrated as a diagnostic tool unless the bores are severely scored.
Peter Morgan doesn't do it as part of his inspection either, I'm guessing that bore scoring is pretty random and he doesn't want his reputation to suffer from making a call on a car that then develops the problem
The discussion needs balance and for every "all cars might have scoring" post I am just as justified in posting "they might not though so just f
king enjoy driving it"Edited by jakesmith on Friday 10th April 13:44
Edited by jakesmith on Friday 10th April 13:47
For me the issue is a basic risk/cost consideration
if it was low risk and high cost that's fine
if it is high risk and low cost that's fine
The problem with bore scoring is that its medium risk and high cost. For many people including me that is unpalatable.
For this reason I was looking at a 997 gen 2 or Lotus Evora as most of the running costs risk meet the "fine" criteria
if it was low risk and high cost that's fine
if it is high risk and low cost that's fine
The problem with bore scoring is that its medium risk and high cost. For many people including me that is unpalatable.
For this reason I was looking at a 997 gen 2 or Lotus Evora as most of the running costs risk meet the "fine" criteria
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No idea where you are getting this from, that makes about as much sense as saying that a car is reliable because you see a lot of them on the road?Have you seen this recently, 50:50 split between engine failures from 'non problem' IMS, and 'inevitable widespread prolific' bore scoring
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Obviously no-one knows how representative this sample is but even if it is completely representative, which I highly doubt due to forums attracting people with issues (just check the 'Relationships' board on Mumsnet if you want to see further proof of this!), it's still 10% which might be unacceptably high but is a far cry from every car suffering from the problem which is the viewpoint that I take issue with.
Based on this, I would personally put failure rate at somewhere in the range of 4.35%-4.72%
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