Ugliest 911 ever?
Discussion
fastgerman said:
Have to agree on this, the aircooled lovers (usually 993 owners for some reason) seem to hate the 996 because of it's looks and yet somehow love the 996 GT3.
If a 996 C2 tiptronic with a GT3 bodykit, GT3 wheels and lowered suspension can look identical to a GT3, how can a 996 C2 be ugly?
In profile the 996 and 997 look very similar, from the back they both look great and from the front it's only headlights ;-)
Saw a 993 targa on those disgusting mini sized split rims today. That is horrid from the sides and back, therefore from the above calculations, 100% worse than a 996 if you don't like the headlights i.e. 2 angles of ghastlyness rather than 1.
Now run & hide, they're coming for ya...!If a 996 C2 tiptronic with a GT3 bodykit, GT3 wheels and lowered suspension can look identical to a GT3, how can a 996 C2 be ugly?
In profile the 996 and 997 look very similar, from the back they both look great and from the front it's only headlights ;-)
Saw a 993 targa on those disgusting mini sized split rims today. That is horrid from the sides and back, therefore from the above calculations, 100% worse than a 996 if you don't like the headlights i.e. 2 angles of ghastlyness rather than 1.
LordHaveMurci said:
fastgerman said:
Have to agree on this, the aircooled lovers (usually 993 owners for some reason) seem to hate the 996 because of it's looks and yet somehow love the 996 GT3.
If a 996 C2 tiptronic with a GT3 bodykit, GT3 wheels and lowered suspension can look identical to a GT3, how can a 996 C2 be ugly?
In profile the 996 and 997 look very similar, from the back they both look great and from the front it's only headlights ;-)
Saw a 993 targa on those disgusting mini sized split rims today. That is horrid from the sides and back, therefore from the above calculations, 100% worse than a 996 if you don't like the headlights i.e. 2 angles of ghastlyness rather than 1.
Now run & hide, they're coming for ya...!If a 996 C2 tiptronic with a GT3 bodykit, GT3 wheels and lowered suspension can look identical to a GT3, how can a 996 C2 be ugly?
In profile the 996 and 997 look very similar, from the back they both look great and from the front it's only headlights ;-)
Saw a 993 targa on those disgusting mini sized split rims today. That is horrid from the sides and back, therefore from the above calculations, 100% worse than a 996 if you don't like the headlights i.e. 2 angles of ghastlyness rather than 1.
Robbo66 said:
fastgerman said:
Surely they're all returning their beards to normal after movember? ;-)
Nope...I'm an air cooled fan, but cannot stand the looks of the 996, the RS in particular.Susan Boyle in a Von Dutch Cap.
We now have a 911 3.0 SC in the family. Red with black and polished Fuchs - James May spec. Love it, just smells a bit and can't be left in the rain.
fastgerman said:
Robbo66 said:
fastgerman said:
Surely they're all returning their beards to normal after movember? ;-)
Nope...I'm an air cooled fan, but cannot stand the looks of the 996, the RS in particular.Susan Boyle in a Von Dutch Cap.
We now have a 911 3.0 SC in the family. Red with black and polished Fuchs - James May spec. Love it, just smells a bit and can't be left in the rain.
Edited by LordHaveMurci on Monday 1st December 15:49
Adam B said:
Like many my vote goes to the standard 996, bland and blobby, aged badly especially with amber lights (by contrast C4S and GT2 look great, and turbo also looks pretty good front vents aside)
Bland and blobby you say?Same could probably be said of this which, to my eye at least, looks very similar (lights excepted).
As an aside, this thread again demonstrates how wheels can make/break a car, and you have deliberately chosen a car fitted with some horrible wheels to help 'uglify' the example picture you've posted.
(I know your game, as I did the same for the 993 example I gave!
) haha - ok you got me, certainly turks car looks a lot better - with 18" wheels, the rear spoiler and black paint hides the blobbiness/ugliness 
but I would argue the older car has crisper and sharper lines to windscreen rake, all side windows, wheel arches edges, front bumpers, rear shell shape, and lights
but I would argue the older car has crisper and sharper lines to windscreen rake, all side windows, wheel arches edges, front bumpers, rear shell shape, and lights
Adam B said:
Sine Metu said:
You said a GT3 is a whole different ball game. In terms of looks which is what this thread is about, it might be different in your head, but trust me, it's the same body as a standard Carrera. You can add bits and bobs or lower the suspension of a Carrera if you want that 'look,' but the cars are the same either way. Even the headlights are the same! Believe it or not.
You seem to be taking this way too personally, because you own one. It is a thread about how a car looks so is entirely subjective, no one is saying a 996 C2 is a bad car, some (including me) are not fans of the looks but like some of the other 996 derivatives (I like only the wide-body C4S, turbo and GT2). So what, its just a personal opinion.Why not stop whining and just post your answer to the original question?
Edited by Adam B on Monday 1st December 14:23
Sine Metu said:
I'm always amused at some of the rhetoric that gets repeated about the 996 within elements of the Porsche 'community' to the extent that it becomes an accepted truism amongst the chattering classes.
Looks are ultimately subjective. But there are some facts to consider. And one stands out above all. Sales of the 996 were effectively double that of it's predecessor. In other words, the 996 was an immediate success aesthetically and functionally in the sports car market. Performance wise it was much lauded on its release. Which shouldn't be a surprise. It was a much more modern machine than any 911 that had gone before which can be ascertained from objective metrics. One of the greatest step forwards was the power to weight ratio and game changing torque curve. It's performance capability remained on par with sports until very recently. A Carrera 3.4 can get to 60mph in 4.6 seconds which is still bloody fast. the advances in power over the last decade have been hampered by increases in legislation and that greatest of enemies, weight. The 996 represents a sweet spot in evolution.
Back to the subjective area of aesthetics and the huge uplift in the popularity of the 911 with the arrival of the 996. only Porsche would know the real stats on consumer profile but it makes for an interesting question: who were the admirers and ultimately purchasers of the 996? We're all of them brand new entrants into the marque who had no particular affinity for air cooled 911's or was it, as is more likely, a mix of existing and new consumers? I suspect that many existing consumers happily chose the new model and an entirely new body of consumers who didn't like 964's or 993's entered 911 ownership. Plus, there were plenty of second hand 993's around when the 996 arrived.
Objectively, if the 993 was the most beautiful of all 911's and the 996 the ugliest, it would have struggled even to maintain its market. But no, it doubled its market. There are about 70k people on this planet ( assuming they're all still alive) who made the decision to buy a brand new 993 (marginally more than 964's). There are 175,000 people who were prepared to fork out for a brand new 996. And last I heard, Porsche weren't getting any commision on second hand sales.
So by all objective metrics, Porsches decision making with the evolution of the 911 has met with enormous success and acclaim (albeit not amongst a curious cabal of bearded ones). So when I see cliches like the unloved 911 or the ugly 911 I smile to myself. The evidence points to the exact opposite.
Where the market place sits right now in terms of pricing is an entirely different matter, driven by supply/demand (especially supply), cycles, fashions (there is a global surge in popularity of older 'heritage' elements right now across numerous product categories, reliability scaremongering, the development of the Internet, the surge in investor driven classic car values across many brands (air cooled 911's are not made anymore, they're finite, water cooled 911's are stilll being made, ergo, a different market). Humans are notorious for herd mentalities and their perspective altered. I've seen numerous research reports on products where for example a bottle design fails consumer testing, but as soon as a celebrity endorses that brand, suddenly consumers like the bottle all of a sudden even though it hasn't changed a bit).
Ultimately looks are subjective. To many, the 996 is a beautiful car either in the context of all 911s and/or in its own right. The ugliet Porsche to me the one that's been badly butchered by mods ( not saying there can't be great mods) or the ones that have been neglected, no matter what model.
Great post, well written and thought out.Looks are ultimately subjective. But there are some facts to consider. And one stands out above all. Sales of the 996 were effectively double that of it's predecessor. In other words, the 996 was an immediate success aesthetically and functionally in the sports car market. Performance wise it was much lauded on its release. Which shouldn't be a surprise. It was a much more modern machine than any 911 that had gone before which can be ascertained from objective metrics. One of the greatest step forwards was the power to weight ratio and game changing torque curve. It's performance capability remained on par with sports until very recently. A Carrera 3.4 can get to 60mph in 4.6 seconds which is still bloody fast. the advances in power over the last decade have been hampered by increases in legislation and that greatest of enemies, weight. The 996 represents a sweet spot in evolution.
Back to the subjective area of aesthetics and the huge uplift in the popularity of the 911 with the arrival of the 996. only Porsche would know the real stats on consumer profile but it makes for an interesting question: who were the admirers and ultimately purchasers of the 996? We're all of them brand new entrants into the marque who had no particular affinity for air cooled 911's or was it, as is more likely, a mix of existing and new consumers? I suspect that many existing consumers happily chose the new model and an entirely new body of consumers who didn't like 964's or 993's entered 911 ownership. Plus, there were plenty of second hand 993's around when the 996 arrived.
Objectively, if the 993 was the most beautiful of all 911's and the 996 the ugliest, it would have struggled even to maintain its market. But no, it doubled its market. There are about 70k people on this planet ( assuming they're all still alive) who made the decision to buy a brand new 993 (marginally more than 964's). There are 175,000 people who were prepared to fork out for a brand new 996. And last I heard, Porsche weren't getting any commision on second hand sales.
So by all objective metrics, Porsches decision making with the evolution of the 911 has met with enormous success and acclaim (albeit not amongst a curious cabal of bearded ones). So when I see cliches like the unloved 911 or the ugly 911 I smile to myself. The evidence points to the exact opposite.
Where the market place sits right now in terms of pricing is an entirely different matter, driven by supply/demand (especially supply), cycles, fashions (there is a global surge in popularity of older 'heritage' elements right now across numerous product categories, reliability scaremongering, the development of the Internet, the surge in investor driven classic car values across many brands (air cooled 911's are not made anymore, they're finite, water cooled 911's are stilll being made, ergo, a different market). Humans are notorious for herd mentalities and their perspective altered. I've seen numerous research reports on products where for example a bottle design fails consumer testing, but as soon as a celebrity endorses that brand, suddenly consumers like the bottle all of a sudden even though it hasn't changed a bit).
Ultimately looks are subjective. To many, the 996 is a beautiful car either in the context of all 911s and/or in its own right. The ugliet Porsche to me the one that's been badly butchered by mods ( not saying there can't be great mods) or the ones that have been neglected, no matter what model.
Edited by Sine Metu on Saturday 29th November 22:04
Edited by Sine Metu on Saturday 29th November 22:09
turk1 said:
Some of you might not agree but i think the 996 is one of the best looking Porsches out there and the closest in looks to the early classic cars with it's sleek clean lines , i also believe it will be a classic in the very near future if it's not allready and prices will start to go up !
I had the use of a 991 for the weekend as a courtesy when mine went in for a service and although i loved it i still prefered the look of my 996 !![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/U2ht2Gll.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/tztQsXoD" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/tztQsXoD.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/tztQsXoD" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/tztQsXoD.jpg)
With the exception of the Turbo, in my opinion 996'2 are Marmite cars, you love 'em or hate'em very little in between. I had the use of a 991 for the weekend as a courtesy when mine went in for a service and although i loved it i still prefered the look of my 996 !
Standard 996's are unlikely to increase with the same ferocity of the air-cooled or rarer water cooled cars, far too many 996's produced, the market is flooded with them, my thoughts anyway?
cjb1 said:
Sine Metu said:
I'm always amused at some of the rhetoric that gets repeated about the 996 within elements of the Porsche 'community' to the extent that it becomes an accepted truism amongst the chattering classes.
Looks are ultimately subjective. But there are some facts to consider. And one stands out above all. Sales of the 996 were effectively double that of it's predecessor. In other words, the 996 was an immediate success aesthetically and functionally in the sports car market. Performance wise it was much lauded on its release. Which shouldn't be a surprise. It was a much more modern machine than any 911 that had gone before which can be ascertained from objective metrics. One of the greatest step forwards was the power to weight ratio and game changing torque curve. It's performance capability remained on par with sports until very recently. A Carrera 3.4 can get to 60mph in 4.6 seconds which is still bloody fast. the advances in power over the last decade have been hampered by increases in legislation and that greatest of enemies, weight. The 996 represents a sweet spot in evolution.
Back to the subjective area of aesthetics and the huge uplift in the popularity of the 911 with the arrival of the 996. only Porsche would know the real stats on consumer profile but it makes for an interesting question: who were the admirers and ultimately purchasers of the 996? We're all of them brand new entrants into the marque who had no particular affinity for air cooled 911's or was it, as is more likely, a mix of existing and new consumers? I suspect that many existing consumers happily chose the new model and an entirely new body of consumers who didn't like 964's or 993's entered 911 ownership. Plus, there were plenty of second hand 993's around when the 996 arrived.
Objectively, if the 993 was the most beautiful of all 911's and the 996 the ugliest, it would have struggled even to maintain its market. But no, it doubled its market. There are about 70k people on this planet ( assuming they're all still alive) who made the decision to buy a brand new 993 (marginally more than 964's). There are 175,000 people who were prepared to fork out for a brand new 996. And last I heard, Porsche weren't getting any commision on second hand sales.
So by all objective metrics, Porsches decision making with the evolution of the 911 has met with enormous success and acclaim (albeit not amongst a curious cabal of bearded ones). So when I see cliches like the unloved 911 or the ugly 911 I smile to myself. The evidence points to the exact opposite.
Where the market place sits right now in terms of pricing is an entirely different matter, driven by supply/demand (especially supply), cycles, fashions (there is a global surge in popularity of older 'heritage' elements right now across numerous product categories, reliability scaremongering, the development of the Internet, the surge in investor driven classic car values across many brands (air cooled 911's are not made anymore, they're finite, water cooled 911's are stilll being made, ergo, a different market). Humans are notorious for herd mentalities and their perspective altered. I've seen numerous research reports on products where for example a bottle design fails consumer testing, but as soon as a celebrity endorses that brand, suddenly consumers like the bottle all of a sudden even though it hasn't changed a bit).
Ultimately looks are subjective. To many, the 996 is a beautiful car either in the context of all 911s and/or in its own right. The ugliet Porsche to me the one that's been badly butchered by mods ( not saying there can't be great mods) or the ones that have been neglected, no matter what model.
Great post, well written and thought out.Looks are ultimately subjective. But there are some facts to consider. And one stands out above all. Sales of the 996 were effectively double that of it's predecessor. In other words, the 996 was an immediate success aesthetically and functionally in the sports car market. Performance wise it was much lauded on its release. Which shouldn't be a surprise. It was a much more modern machine than any 911 that had gone before which can be ascertained from objective metrics. One of the greatest step forwards was the power to weight ratio and game changing torque curve. It's performance capability remained on par with sports until very recently. A Carrera 3.4 can get to 60mph in 4.6 seconds which is still bloody fast. the advances in power over the last decade have been hampered by increases in legislation and that greatest of enemies, weight. The 996 represents a sweet spot in evolution.
Back to the subjective area of aesthetics and the huge uplift in the popularity of the 911 with the arrival of the 996. only Porsche would know the real stats on consumer profile but it makes for an interesting question: who were the admirers and ultimately purchasers of the 996? We're all of them brand new entrants into the marque who had no particular affinity for air cooled 911's or was it, as is more likely, a mix of existing and new consumers? I suspect that many existing consumers happily chose the new model and an entirely new body of consumers who didn't like 964's or 993's entered 911 ownership. Plus, there were plenty of second hand 993's around when the 996 arrived.
Objectively, if the 993 was the most beautiful of all 911's and the 996 the ugliest, it would have struggled even to maintain its market. But no, it doubled its market. There are about 70k people on this planet ( assuming they're all still alive) who made the decision to buy a brand new 993 (marginally more than 964's). There are 175,000 people who were prepared to fork out for a brand new 996. And last I heard, Porsche weren't getting any commision on second hand sales.
So by all objective metrics, Porsches decision making with the evolution of the 911 has met with enormous success and acclaim (albeit not amongst a curious cabal of bearded ones). So when I see cliches like the unloved 911 or the ugly 911 I smile to myself. The evidence points to the exact opposite.
Where the market place sits right now in terms of pricing is an entirely different matter, driven by supply/demand (especially supply), cycles, fashions (there is a global surge in popularity of older 'heritage' elements right now across numerous product categories, reliability scaremongering, the development of the Internet, the surge in investor driven classic car values across many brands (air cooled 911's are not made anymore, they're finite, water cooled 911's are stilll being made, ergo, a different market). Humans are notorious for herd mentalities and their perspective altered. I've seen numerous research reports on products where for example a bottle design fails consumer testing, but as soon as a celebrity endorses that brand, suddenly consumers like the bottle all of a sudden even though it hasn't changed a bit).
Ultimately looks are subjective. To many, the 996 is a beautiful car either in the context of all 911s and/or in its own right. The ugliet Porsche to me the one that's been badly butchered by mods ( not saying there can't be great mods) or the ones that have been neglected, no matter what model.
Edited by Sine Metu on Saturday 29th November 22:04
Edited by Sine Metu on Saturday 29th November 22:09
One thing though, don't tar all us aircooled fans as dishing the 996. The 996 was a great advance in the 911 story, my own opinion is that I prefer the handbuilt/old school feel of the earlier cars, its not that I find the 996 inferior in any way.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The point is going right over your head. Some elements 'claim' that the 996 is the most unloved 911. This may be true amongst a certain segment who robotically regurgitate the same line (certain Porsche magazines for example and a certain type on forum visitor). But it's not actually the case amongst the majority of Porsche buyers at all. And its not the case with the wider motoring enthusiast world that there is any issue with the looks of the 996. Quite the contrary. It's not a statement about whether the car is beautiful or ugly (that's subjective), it's not a statement about whether the 996 is wonderful or crap (that is to a large extent empirical - and as we know, in terms of performance driving attributes, the 996 is recognised as outstanding and a league ahead of anything that went before). It's a statement about subjective opinions being expressed as accepted facts. Belched out clichés with zero substance such as "everyone thinks this,' or "the majority think that," (a phrase actually used by a poster in this thread), which are complete nonsense. cjb1 said:
turk1 said:
Some of you might not agree but i think the 996 is one of the best looking Porsches out there and the closest in looks to the early classic cars with it's sleek clean lines , i also believe it will be a classic in the very near future if it's not allready and prices will start to go up !
I had the use of a 991 for the weekend as a courtesy when mine went in for a service and although i loved it i still prefered the look of my 996 !
With the exception of the Turbo, in my opinion 996'2 are Marmite cars, you love 'em or hate'em very little in between. I had the use of a 991 for the weekend as a courtesy when mine went in for a service and although i loved it i still prefered the look of my 996 !
Standard 996's are unlikely to increase with the same ferocity of the air-cooled or rarer water cooled cars, far too many 996's produced, the market is flooded with them, my thoughts anyway?
Sine Metu said:
The point is going right over your head. Some elements 'claim' that the 996 is the most unloved 911. This may be true amongst a certain segment who robotically regurgitate the same line (certain Porsche magazines for example and a certain type on forum visitor). But it's not actually the case amongst the majority of Porsche buyers at all. And its not the case with the wider motoring enthusiast world that there is any issue with the looks of the 996. Quite the contrary. It's not a statement about whether the car is beautiful or ugly (that's subjective), it's not a statement about whether the 996 is wonderful or crap (that is to a large extent empirical - and as we know, in terms of performance driving attributes, the 996 is recognised as outstanding and a league ahead of anything that went before). It's a statement about subjective opinions being expressed as accepted facts. Belched out clichés with zero substance such as "everyone thinks this,' or "the majority think that," (a phrase actually used by a poster in this thread), which are complete nonsense.
In terms of 'the magazines', especially the Porsche ones, I think you will find that they have been talking up the 996 for some time.A cynic might suggest that they are chasing readers, given the number of cars out there. I would never entertain such a thought.
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