Ugliest 911 ever?
Discussion
mollytherocker said:
Sine Metu said:
The point is going right over your head. Some elements 'claim' that the 996 is the most unloved 911. This may be true amongst a certain segment who robotically regurgitate the same line (certain Porsche magazines for example and a certain type on forum visitor). But it's not actually the case amongst the majority of Porsche buyers at all. And its not the case with the wider motoring enthusiast world that there is any issue with the looks of the 996. Quite the contrary. It's not a statement about whether the car is beautiful or ugly (that's subjective), it's not a statement about whether the 996 is wonderful or crap (that is to a large extent empirical - and as we know, in terms of performance driving attributes, the 996 is recognised as outstanding and a league ahead of anything that went before). It's a statement about subjective opinions being expressed as accepted facts. Belched out clichés with zero substance such as "everyone thinks this,' or "the majority think that," (a phrase actually used by a poster in this thread), which are complete nonsense.
In terms of 'the magazines', especially the Porsche ones, I think you will find that they have been talking up the 996 for some time.A cynic might suggest that they are chasing readers, given the number of cars out there. I would never entertain such a thought.
MarshPhantom said:
turk1 said:
I remember very well many years ago when the 964 use to get slated for it's looks which i really liked, people were talking about how they would be worth 2 pence in the future, look at them now !
C
You then go onto use the same type of crap about beardy air cooled owners!
Sine Metu said:
The premium car uptake was gradual. Audi had only just changed over from 80,100 etc to the A4,A6 line. The TT was launched in 1998. Their cars had gotten a lot better and more appealing at that time. And so they grew. You'll find similar reinvention across the German industry. The premium car market grew driven by German cars that were so much better than the competition that they became truly aspirational. People traded out of other brands into the German brands. But growth rates still average high teens. The 996 however doubled Porsche 911 sales in a year.
What is this beardy phrase I see, 'non-enthusiast?' What is that meant to imply? That air cooled 911 drivers were true sport car enthusiasts but those who previously had no desire for a 911 but were tempted by a 996 were somehow non-enthusiasts? This is the kind of stuff I see all the time when the 996 is discussed. Complete random views based on nothing.
To your core point "But all the evidence suggests a pretty loose connection."
Big statement to make which is basically - Car maker redesigns car. Car is instant huge success. Sales records shattered; But success probably very little to do with design and dynamics. And all the evidence demonstrates this.
What evidence? I can't wait to see this.
May I suggest that you are being a little hypocritical here. You claim that any derision towards the 996 is unfounded, and deeply prejudicial, and that the same old assumptions are trotted out without foundation.What is this beardy phrase I see, 'non-enthusiast?' What is that meant to imply? That air cooled 911 drivers were true sport car enthusiasts but those who previously had no desire for a 911 but were tempted by a 996 were somehow non-enthusiasts? This is the kind of stuff I see all the time when the 996 is discussed. Complete random views based on nothing.
To your core point "But all the evidence suggests a pretty loose connection."
Big statement to make which is basically - Car maker redesigns car. Car is instant huge success. Sales records shattered; But success probably very little to do with design and dynamics. And all the evidence demonstrates this.
What evidence? I can't wait to see this.
Edited by Sine Metu on Tuesday 2nd December 17:22
Edited by Sine Metu on Tuesday 2nd December 17:23
You then go onto use the same type of crap about beardy air cooled owners!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This is about the truth of it, look at the first Cayenne, the bread van, a hideous POS which was a massive success thanks to the badge and the drive....The 996 was an ugly mother f
ker when it first came out and remains so today IMO. When my pal brought round his brand new GT2 in 2002 nothing had changed for me in the looks department. There is nothing to argue about here it is all subjective there is no right answer 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If you mean, what original 911 as released by the factory (as opposed to all the various modified and customised ones over the years) then I would have to preface it by saying I don't consider any 911 to be ugly. So none can be the most ugly. To say a car is ugly is quite extreme. But if you asked me which 911 would I find the least attractive, the one I would be least likely to pull a seat up and just admire it for a while, for me, it would have to be, and sorry to any owners on here, early and IB targas. I still consider it a nice car though and in th right colour, that back window can look quite cool. But it does lose a lot by losing its classic roofline IMHO. I'm fairly okay with the 991 targa.mollytherocker said:
C
You then go onto use the same type of crap about beardy air cooled owners!
Read my post again. I never used the phrase beardy air cooled owners. There are countless numbers of 911 owners who bought air cooled and water cooled. You used the phrase non enthusiast about buyers of 996's which was derisory which is fine. Your allowed insult. My point is you have no facts to support that. Its just a random groundless assertion. It's actually a preposterous statement to suggest that 175000 Porsche 911 buyers weren't car/ driving enthusiasts in whatever form that takes whether it's spirited driving or just enjoying the beauty and th echaracter of it. Sine Metu said:
The premium car uptake was gradual. Audi had only just changed over from 80,100 etc to the A4,A6 line. The TT was launched in 1998. Their cars had gotten a lot better and more appealing at that time. And so they grew. You'll find similar reinvention across the German industry. The premium car market grew driven by German cars that were so much better than the competition that they became truly aspirational. People traded out of other brands into the German brands. But growth rates still average high teens. The 996 however doubled Porsche 911 sales in a year.
What is this beardy phrase I see, 'non-enthusiast?' What is that meant to imply? That air cooled 911 drivers were true sport car enthusiasts but those who previously had no desire for a 911 but were tempted by a 996 were somehow non-enthusiasts? This is the kind of stuff I see all the time when the 996 is discussed. Complete random views based on nothing.
To your core point "But all the evidence suggests a pretty loose connection."
Big statement to make which is basically - Car maker redesigns car. Car is instant huge success. Sales records shattered; But success probably very little to do with design and dynamics. And all the evidence demonstrates this.
What evidence? I can't wait to see this.
May I suggest that you are being a little hypocritical here. You claim that any derision towards the 996 is unfounded, and deeply prejudicial, and that the same old assumptions are trotted out without foundation.What is this beardy phrase I see, 'non-enthusiast?' What is that meant to imply? That air cooled 911 drivers were true sport car enthusiasts but those who previously had no desire for a 911 but were tempted by a 996 were somehow non-enthusiasts? This is the kind of stuff I see all the time when the 996 is discussed. Complete random views based on nothing.
To your core point "But all the evidence suggests a pretty loose connection."
Big statement to make which is basically - Car maker redesigns car. Car is instant huge success. Sales records shattered; But success probably very little to do with design and dynamics. And all the evidence demonstrates this.
What evidence? I can't wait to see this.
Edited by Sine Metu on Tuesday 2nd December 17:22
Edited by Sine Metu on Tuesday 2nd December 17:23
You then go onto use the same type of crap about beardy air cooled owners!
Also, I never said any derision is unfounded. If someone doesn't like it fine, knock yourself out. My point is that the saying 'the world' doesn't like it, or it was 'the most unloved 911' is a groundless fallacy that gets recited as though fact. I see this kind of nonsense all the time in Porshce magazine. I saw one article once claiming that air cooled owners keep their cars cleaner than 996 owners because they have a real passion and love for their car. A passion that 996 owners lack. That type of rubbish. A bit like you non enthusiast makey uppy aside.
Sine Metu said:
Read my post again. I never used the phrase beardy air cooled owners. There are countless numbers of 911 owners who bought air cooled and water cooled. You used the phrase non enthusiast about buyers of 996's which was derisory which is fine. Your allowed insult. My point is you have no facts to support that. Its just a random groundless assertion. It's actually a preposterous statement to suggest that 175000 Porsche 911 buyers weren't car/ driving enthusiasts in whatever form that takes whether it's spirited driving or just enjoying the beauty and th echaracter of it.
Also, I never said any derision is unfounded. If someone doesn't like it fine, knock yourself out. My point is that the saying 'the world' doesn't like it, or it was 'the most unloved 911' is a groundless fallacy that gets recited as though fact. I see this kind of nonsense all the time in Porshce magazine. I saw one article once claiming that air cooled owners keep their cars cleaner than 996 owners because they have a real passion and love for their car. A passion that 996 owners lack. That type of rubbish. A bit like you non enthusiast makey uppy aside.
I haven't used the phrase 'non enthusiast' at all!Also, I never said any derision is unfounded. If someone doesn't like it fine, knock yourself out. My point is that the saying 'the world' doesn't like it, or it was 'the most unloved 911' is a groundless fallacy that gets recited as though fact. I see this kind of nonsense all the time in Porshce magazine. I saw one article once claiming that air cooled owners keep their cars cleaner than 996 owners because they have a real passion and love for their car. A passion that 996 owners lack. That type of rubbish. A bit like you non enthusiast makey uppy aside.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The pent up demand argument? A proposition but nothing else. Again, no facts to support. Just hypotheses. But let's run with it. So people for years wanted a 911 but not the existing one so they waited until an all new one came out (the 993 not being new enough obviously which didn't outsell the 964 to any appreciable extent). So they waited a while longer. And this unleashed demad was so pent up, it lasted for eight years? But there's more to your argument. Not only was the demand based on pent up frustration over years, but the appeal of the new model was the interior, safety etc. Oh no, they couldn't possibly have liked how the ear looked. They grudgingly accepted that there's would be visually disappointing let's say, such we're the amazing qualities of the interior, safety, creature comforts and the etc's you allude.And this is how absurd it gets. If you don't like the looks of the 996 fine. Great design can often be polarising. But to try to unearth every possible reason why others might have bought it while dismissing any possibility that maybe, just maybe, a whole generation of Porsche fans loved its looks (as surprising as the might be to you or any others whose view of the 996 era is formulated by Total911 or GTpp journos or forum dwellers is...well, denying the truth of history.
And it's a facile argument to say just because something was popularly received doesn't mean anything. It's not even my argument anyway. My argument that the popular acclaim the car received and continued to enjoy through its time has been somehow revised and hidden under the carpet by those who just can't allow to disagree with their own personal prejudice.
mollytherocker said:
Sine Metu said:
Read my post again. I never used the phrase beardy air cooled owners. There are countless numbers of 911 owners who bought air cooled and water cooled. You used the phrase non enthusiast about buyers of 996's which was derisory which is fine. Your allowed insult. My point is you have no facts to support that. Its just a random groundless assertion. It's actually a preposterous statement to suggest that 175000 Porsche 911 buyers weren't car/ driving enthusiasts in whatever form that takes whether it's spirited driving or just enjoying the beauty and th echaracter of it.
Also, I never said any derision is unfounded. If someone doesn't like it fine, knock yourself out. My point is that the saying 'the world' doesn't like it, or it was 'the most unloved 911' is a groundless fallacy that gets recited as though fact. I see this kind of nonsense all the time in Porshce magazine. I saw one article once claiming that air cooled owners keep their cars cleaner than 996 owners because they have a real passion and love for their car. A passion that 996 owners lack. That type of rubbish. A bit like you non enthusiast makey uppy aside.
I haven't used the phrase 'non enthusiast' at all!Also, I never said any derision is unfounded. If someone doesn't like it fine, knock yourself out. My point is that the saying 'the world' doesn't like it, or it was 'the most unloved 911' is a groundless fallacy that gets recited as though fact. I see this kind of nonsense all the time in Porshce magazine. I saw one article once claiming that air cooled owners keep their cars cleaner than 996 owners because they have a real passion and love for their car. A passion that 996 owners lack. That type of rubbish. A bit like you non enthusiast makey uppy aside.
Sine Metu said:
The pent up demand argument? A proposition but nothing else. Again, no facts to support. Just hypotheses. But let's run with it. So people for years wanted a 911 but not the existing one so they waited until an all new one came out (the 993 not being new enough obviously which didn't outsell the 964 to any appreciable extent). So they waited a while longer. And this unleashed demad was so pent up, it lasted for eight years? But there's more to your argument. Not only was the demand based on pent up frustration over years, but the appeal of the new model was the interior, safety etc. Oh no, they couldn't possibly have liked how the ear looked. They grudgingly accepted that there's would be visually disappointing let's say, such we're the amazing qualities of the interior, safety, creature comforts and the etc's you allude.
And this is how absurd it gets. If you don't like the looks of the 996 fine. Great design can often be polarising. But to try to unearth every possible reason why others might have bought it while dismissing any possibility that maybe, just maybe, a whole generation of Porsche fans loved its looks (as surprising as the might be to you or any others whose view of the 996 era is formulated by Total911 or GTpp journos or forum dwellers is...well, denying the truth of history.
And it's a facile argument to say just because something was popularly received doesn't mean anything. It's not even my argument anyway. My argument that the popular acclaim the car received and continued to enjoy through its time has been somehow revised and hidden under the carpet by those who just can't allow to disagree with their own personal prejudice.
I didn't even say I don't like "the 996". In my original post I said I thought the 996 Turbo was possibly the ugliest 911 ever. I like the mk1 996, mk2 GT3s and GT2. No I don't have facts to back-up a subjective view and I haven't even bothered checking your "facts" because I know what subjective means. I'm fairly sure you don't.And this is how absurd it gets. If you don't like the looks of the 996 fine. Great design can often be polarising. But to try to unearth every possible reason why others might have bought it while dismissing any possibility that maybe, just maybe, a whole generation of Porsche fans loved its looks (as surprising as the might be to you or any others whose view of the 996 era is formulated by Total911 or GTpp journos or forum dwellers is...well, denying the truth of history.
And it's a facile argument to say just because something was popularly received doesn't mean anything. It's not even my argument anyway. My argument that the popular acclaim the car received and continued to enjoy through its time has been somehow revised and hidden under the carpet by those who just can't allow to disagree with their own personal prejudice.
When are you going to say what you think the ugliest 911 ever is? It might have skipped your attention but that is the title of the thread and my original post asks people to give their nominations. Your rants are beyond boring now. Why do you feel the need to stick up for "the 996" so much anyway?
Edited by JMo22 on Tuesday 2nd December 21:46
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