996 Turbo disappointment after M3. Am I missing something?

[mark.c]

They are very different cars, your M3 was a playful rear drive front engined back street racer, the 996 Turbo is a no nonsense, very fast, get it done without drama, supercar. In a similar vein, I have a 993 Turbo and a CSL and it will come as no surprise as to which is the biggest hooligan and which will let you get away with more.
You soon learn that you have to drive them differently to get your rewards and the no nonsense super car experience may not be what you are after if you want playful sideways stuff.
Have you tried a GT3?....

[hondansx]

Storm996 said:

Maybe this is a naive question but what do people generally think of as a 'fun' car to drive?

Does it mean it has an element of unpredictability?

I have had TVRs, Lotus Esprit turbo, Lotus Europa, 996C2 and several Ford RS cars in the past. They were quick but I wouldn't say 'fun' unless being driven on a track.

Is any car 'fun' on a normal road? My 996turbo is alarmingly quick and reassuringly forgiving
compared with other cars. It probably needs a little less driver input as the car is designed to be.

The people who want 'fun' 'involving' cars isn't that like saying "I don't a tv with a remote control, I feel less involved I liked the old days of walking to the tv and clunking the channel buttons on the tv front" ?

As I said at the start of this post. I might be missing something.

Edited by Storm996 on Wednesday 19th November 23:46

When i went from 997.1 Turbo to 997.2 Turbo S it was 'keener'. It turned in enthusiastically, lifting the threshold of understeer to the point in some scenarios it would rather oversteer. It was fun, yet the ride was no worse and it wasn't tugged around by cambers, i.e. no compromises made.

For the Average Joe, a car has to come to live on the road. It's all very well saying a car is very well balanced on the limit on the race track, but as enthusiasts we want to feel like we're race drivers on the commute. That's why many of us further compromise our cars with exhausts, remaps and suspension upgrades!

BMW got it very right with the Mini. They gave it a genuine go-kart feel with its four-square stance and incredibly keen turn-in. They engineered in the pops and crackles even on the Cooper model to give the car character. They are an event to drive at 30mph! And funnily enough, just about every car company has copied them in that area now.

[jackal]

Adam B said:

I always find these threads a bit odd

Even if I had never driven either if I was swapping an M3 for a modern 911 turbo of whatever flavour I would know to expect:

Faster
Less fruity exhaust tone
Less rwd playfulness
More 4wd traction and grip
Higher limits
Less interior space
Different badge on the front

Why would any of these be a surprise to a PHer?

You would be surprised. Lots of people automatically assume the 911 turbo is THE BEST because its the most expensive and fastest. The amount of times i've read over on the Ferrari forum how folk were disappointed with their 996/997 turbo ownership experience and were so much happier when they changed to a 360 / 430 etc. without realising that they've compared two totally misaligned antithetical cars. They should have compared the Turbo to a Scaglietti FFS !

Remember a lot of younger people now grew up on Scoobies, Quattro A4s, fast diesels etc. Unlike previous generations (who grew up on elises, caterhams, ford escorts, capris, hot hatches with lots of LOO, alfasuds, MGB etc.. ) Their compass is simply not orientated around things like steering feel, throttle adjustability, chassis balance etc.

[dank]

I think it depends what you're expecting from the car. I went from 7 years in a go cart like vx220 ( and also 5 years club racing ) , which was very very responsive and nimble. The 996 Turbo feels much more planted at high speed cornering and less jittery, but in no way is it soft. When in low gears, 2nd and 3rd, rev it to the limi, the car transforms into a very agile and nimble sports car with ballistic straight line speed for the straights. I regularly zip it around the country lanes, and it feels so balanced and perfectly weighted, dancing round the corners, engine howling, then warp speed on the straights.....the party piece of the 911 turbo's has always been rocket ship warp speed on the straights, but you need to look beyond this, this aside it's a hugely capable sports car and more than capable of giving real driver feedback and thrills, you just need to drive it more, learn what it has to give. It's an all rounder and not comprised in any respect, daily driver at low speeds in town, rocket ship on the straights, motorway cruiser and real snappy, aggressive responsive sports car on the twisties, brilliant designed and engineered all round super car..... I have had mine 2 years now and won't be selling for a long time to come, tick all boxes!

[edc]

Storm996 said:

Maybe this is a naive question but what do people generally think of as a 'fun' car to drive?

Does it mean it has an element of unpredictability?

I have had TVRs, Lotus Esprit turbo, Lotus Europa, 996C2 and several Ford RS cars in the past. They were quick but I wouldn't say 'fun' unless being driven on a track.

Is any car 'fun' on a normal road? My 996turbo is alarmingly quick and reassuringly forgiving
compared with other cars. It probably needs a little less driver input as the car is designed to be.

The people who want 'fun' 'involving' cars isn't that like saying "I don't a tv with a remote control, I feel less involved I liked the old days of walking to the tv and clunking the channel buttons on the tv front" ?

As I said at the start of this post. I might be missing something.

Edited by Storm996 on Wednesday 19th November 23:46

This is one of the reasons why people prefer the 993/964 etc as you can use more of the performance closer to the limits more of the time. The same is true of the Boxster despite it being universally sniggered at and 911 owners loking down their nose. In this context, it is probably the best car that Porsche make. I can go the same speeds in a Turbo as my Boxster without breaking sweat with little or no drama. Of course, you can drive a Boxster in the same way, maybe just a little slower though. But if you want to use the rev range, want the need to change gears and not just ride a long surge of torque in third gear all day long, sweat a bit, slip and slide a bit, feel like you are really testing the car, at more sane speeds, then a Boxster ticks a lot of boxes.

If what you want is to go as fast as possible or as you are comfortable with and all done so serenely then the car with the most power, grip etc is going to fulfill the brief. Handling wise pretty much all Porsches are top of the tree in that respect.

[Lost soul]

Onetrackmind said:

I found the M3's great to drive as I loved the way they'd move about under you in the corners

And there it is

[moc]

dank said:

I think it depends what you're expecting from the car. I went from 7 years in a go cart like vx220 ( and also 5 years club racing ) , which was very very responsive and nimble. The 996 Turbo feels much more planted at high speed cornering and less jittery, but in no way is it soft. When in low gears, 2nd and 3rd, rev it to the limi, the car transforms into a very agile and nimble sports car with ballistic straight line speed for the straights. I regularly zip it around the country lanes, and it feels so balanced and perfectly weighted, dancing round the corners, engine howling, then warp speed on the straights.....the party piece of the 911 turbo's has always been rocket ship warp speed on the straights, but you need to look beyond this, this aside it's a hugely capable sports car and more than capable of giving real driver feedback and thrills, you just need to drive it more, learn what it has to give. It's an all rounder and not comprised in any respect, daily driver at low speeds in town, rocket ship on the straights, motorway cruiser and real snappy, aggressive responsive sports car on the twisties, brilliant designed and engineered all round super car..... I have had mine 2 years now and won't be selling for a long time to come, tick all boxes!

What he said.

I also come from a club racing background and have just stepped out of nearly 5 years of ownership of a Challenge Stradale which got tracked, euro'd and everything in between.

I've now got a 997.1TT because it was an itch that needed scratching, wanted something manual with 4 seats and I considered it to be safe money for the moment.

I'm really enjoying the car, at the moment anyway. As above it's a very accomplished car, it's not a race car nor does it pretend to be, it's never going to give you the feedback the Stradale did, but neither is it a big boring GT cruiser. It's a real jack of all trades, not just a straight line monster, and all of which it does well, but none of which it specialises in.

Edited by moc on Thursday 20th November 12:30

[Pixelpeep7r]

this is what happens when you only have one car and expect it to tick all your boxes.

fun = unstable / unpredictable / dangerous ? - do you really want to have to fight the car everytime you want to make progress whilst commuting to work/getting milk?

I love the point and shoot security and stability of a turbo 4wd car. 95% of the time.

The fun for me is being quicker than most who are having to work 10 times as hard behind the wheel just so they can 'have a purer driving experience'

maybe its just my age

OP - enjoy the epic engineering that allows you to have a dull drive - maybe sell the 911 and get an audi RS4 for daytimes and a £1500 supercharged MX5 for the weekends?

[Onetrackmind]

Just to clarify, it's not that I was expecting the same driving experience between the two cars. The 996 tt has many strengths, such as, occasion, pure shove, looks, steering feel, brake feel and power, grip etc etc. it's just that I didn't expect it to be SO competent when handling. It's not that I drifted the M3 everywhere, far from it. I suppose I miss being able to steer on the throttle. I'm sure as I learn the car there will learn other characteristics of the handling that I will enjoy. I'll have to work on my 'slow in, fast out'. After all, I still have the old E36 M3 for hooliganism!

[plynchy]

If you're considering selling the 996TT drop me a PM.

Sold my E46 M3 funnily enough and looking for a 996TT manual coupe.

[kayc]

I loved my 996tt..sold a Csl to buy it,couldnt believe how fast/planted and well built it was compared to the CSL..great cars 996 tt..especially if you stick a DMS chip in them!

[Henry-F]

The 996 Turbo will be different things to different people. It's quick, particularly so because of the tubo. That shove through the seat as the power delivery gets compressed by the forced induction. But it's also a bit daunting when you get in and drive. Everything happens a bit quicker, you arrive at corners a bit faster and the throttle seems to have a life of its own. One minute you touch it and the car rockets away, another time it does far less. It depends on where you are in the rev range and how much boost pressure you've got.

In the simplest sense a 996 turbo flatters the average driver. You can potter round corners then blast along the straight before making use of those indestructible brakes and taking the next bend. But this is your Dad's car, or in my daughters case her mum's, so you've always got that nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to be careful. It's not like your first car who's throttle was an on off switch and providing you are old enough to have had a rear wheel drive car, something you constantly tried to get the back end to step out at every opportunity. No mean feat in a 1.3 Cortina!

But it is possible to chuck a 996 turbo around. You just have to be able to work all the knobs properly. Not everyone can or indeed wants to and as has been said already you do find yourself moving at faster speeds. The 996 turbo isn't a book you read in a weekend. It takes a while.

Is it the best? One of the best would probably be a beater way of putting it

Henry

[hondansx]

Pixelpeep7r said:

this is what happens when you only have one car and expect it to tick all your boxes.

Exactly right. Tried and failed many times trying to find the car without compromises - it doesn't exist!

[Onetrackmind]

Henry-F said:

The 996 Turbo will be different things to different people. It's quick, particularly so because of the tubo. That shove through the seat as the power delivery gets compressed by the forced induction. But it's also a bit daunting when you get in and drive. Everything happens a bit quicker, you arrive at corners a bit faster and the throttle seems to have a life of its own. One minute you touch it and the car rockets away, another time it does far less. It depends on where you are in the rev range and how much boost pressure you've got.

In the simplest sense a 996 turbo flatters the average driver. You can potter round corners then blast along the straight before making use of those indestructible brakes and taking the next bend. But this is your Dad's car, or in my daughters case her mum's, so you've always got that nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to be careful. It's not like your first car who's throttle was an on off switch and providing you are old enough to have had a rear wheel drive car, something you constantly tried to get the back end to step out at every opportunity. No mean feat in a 1.3 Cortina!

But it is possible to chuck a 996 turbo around. You just have to be able to work all the knobs properly. Not everyone can or indeed wants to and as has been said already you do find yourself moving at faster speeds. The 996 turbo isn't a book you read in a weekend. It takes a while.

Is it the best? One of the best would probably be a beater way of putting it

Henry

Some really helpful insights on the first and third para but you've lost me in the middle!

[Slippydiff]

Pixelpeep7r said:

The fun for me is being quicker than most who are having to work 10 times as hard behind the wheel just so they can 'have a purer driving experience'

For a daily driver ? Yep, probably. But busy minds are happy minds, so for a weekend toy, that's not what's called for. Hence this rather well written piece by a fellow PH'er :

"To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product.

Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a good manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.

It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.

It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier"

[dank]

back to original post, the decision is yours to make, if you feel it's not what you want, sell it.....or if you're prepared to try it out some more, keep it..... simple really.....they are very popular cars, so selling won't be an issue, providing is a good'un, then get something else you might prefer, life is too short to procrastinate over a car!

[Crimp]

Tend to agree a standard 996Turbo is a bit sterile.
I've had 3 of them and owned a GT3 and a GT2.
My current car is another 996 Turbo, with a DMS map and pipe and 997 GT2 uprated intercoolers (550bhp)
Also had the suspension dropped 25mm and it has the GT2 kit on.
The car is a complete transformation in looks/performance/noise, far more planted than anything else and far quicker than any other 911 I've owned.
They are epic cars but you do need to do some mods to create a more raw drivers appeal experience.

[VladD]

The answer

[rgracin]

Henry-F said:

The 996 Turbo will be different things to different people. It's quick, particularly so because of the tubo. That shove through the seat as the power delivery gets compressed by the forced induction. But it's also a bit daunting when you get in and drive. Everything happens a bit quicker, you arrive at corners a bit faster and the throttle seems to have a life of its own. One minute you touch it and the car rockets away, another time it does far less. It depends on where you are in the rev range and how much boost pressure you've got.

In the simplest sense a 996 turbo flatters the average driver. You can potter round corners then blast along the straight before making use of those indestructible brakes and taking the next bend. But this is your Dad's car, or in my daughters case her mum's, so you've always got that nagging voice in the back of your head telling you to be careful. It's not like your first car who's throttle was an on off switch and providing you are old enough to have had a rear wheel drive car, something you constantly tried to get the back end to step out at every opportunity. No mean feat in a 1.3 Cortina!

But it is possible to chuck a 996 turbo around. You just have to be able to work all the knobs properly. Not everyone can or indeed wants to and as has been said already you do find yourself moving at faster speeds. The 996 turbo isn't a book you read in a weekend. It takes a while.

Is it the best? One of the best would probably be a beater way of putting it

Henry

This sums up the car really well. When you have a car "moving underneath you" there are two elements involved, well, for me anyway. Fun that you are driving like a god , concern that you could potentially put it into the scenery. When the fun element is out weighing the concern, that's where you need to be. The problem with the 996tt and many modern performance cars, you tend to be travelling a fair bit quicker when it starts to move, this inevitably means the scenery could approach quicker which means the concern starts to out weigh the fun. Not driven one, but I suspect the 996 GT2 should start to move at slightly slower speeds.

Ramblings, but it makes sense to me!

[Crimp]

VladD said:

The answer

Loving that.