This is getting ridiculous!
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Totally agree, there is much distortion due to many people successfully managing to drive the market up.But thats part of the game in any market.
The question is, is it sustainable? I believe it is due to the scarcity of good cars vs the growing interest which I am convinced will only increase.
Wozy68 said:
Id be having a quiet word with the GT3 owner and asking him why he didn't pop her into 3rd. If his reply was he had and 4th as well, well then I'd be either racing another mate, or your mate buying himself an old TR4 or similar.
An Integrale is 20 plus years old, and would be all over a 964 on the twisties then and now and especially on unknown roads, and they were just as good if not better engine wise. In fact the 964 wouldn't have lasted as long engine wise.
Sorry to burst a rose tinted bubble, but I've owned both, and a 964 is still the car it was 20 years ago....... and that's def not either capable of keeping with a GT3 on quiet roads or back in the day even a partially good (let alone great) fast B road car that could match the likes of Lancia etc etc.
An Integrale is 20 plus years old, and would be all over a 964 on the twisties then and now and especially on unknown roads, and they were just as good if not better engine wise. In fact the 964 wouldn't have lasted as long engine wise.
Sorry to burst a rose tinted bubble, but I've owned both, and a 964 is still the car it was 20 years ago....... and that's def not either capable of keeping with a GT3 on quiet roads or back in the day even a partially good (let alone great) fast B road car that could match the likes of Lancia etc etc.
Blimey, not your usual modus operandi Wozy 
A couple of years ago I did a N.Wales run with some Rennlist lads in their 964's, I was in my Manthey Mk1 GT3, along with Keep it Lit in his heavily modified Mk1. I think it fair to say we were both surprised at the turn of speed the 964 lads displayed. Safe to say "they kept us honest". No doubt if we'd really put the hammer down we'd have left them behind, but for a spirited drive along some cracking A roads, the 964 was not found wanting.
As for an Integrale (or any Lancia for that matter) feeling tight and solid at 100k miles ........ ditto an Integrale engine outlasting a properly maintained 964 lump .......
DiscoColin said:
A lot of people are thinking that these are being bought by people with a mindset for driving cars who care what it cost when new... One suspects that if you want to understand why the prices have gone nuts you should instead think of the rationale that people use to buy art. People who can afford whatever they want will pay £1 more than someone else to acquire it. Motivation can be childhood whim, genuine infatuation or an attempt at one-upmanship - but even at these silly numbers you can buy 150 of them for the price of the latest Gulfstream or 300 foot yacht. In a world where people pay 8 figure sums for flats... It can in theory get a lot more ridiculous than this.
As always with rare items - if you can find a better and cheaper example then feel free to buy it. Otherwise, the alarming number quoted is what it will cost you to own it. All it takes is for somebody to want it for whom the number asked is not an emotional sum, then that is what it is worth. Which - frankly - is a shame.
+1. It's a very rare car and whoever buys it will probably have plenty of money. If I had the money I would buy it!! And would I have an XJ220 or two over one? No. As always with rare items - if you can find a better and cheaper example then feel free to buy it. Otherwise, the alarming number quoted is what it will cost you to own it. All it takes is for somebody to want it for whom the number asked is not an emotional sum, then that is what it is worth. Which - frankly - is a shame.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you're right here. A combination of traders pushing prices up and Total 911 running out of things to write about. 
This whole reliability thing is a bit of a myth, especially when you consider the 996 and all the IMS and cooling issues Porsche has engineered in to it's cars, I'm sure VW will sort this out though. The air cooled are pretty simple engines so not much can go wrong if they are maintained, which they are as they are all owned by enthusiasts. Any car will do over 100k miles. I had a BMW 316 E36 as my first car. I bought it at 130k miles and thrashed it until 180k miles where it was still going strong, until a tree got in the way. The only car I've ever been nervous owning was my Cayman S, as I was always just waiting for the engine to self-destruct. In fact I sold it for that very reason.
Wozy68 said:
GT Two said:
I stood back and looked at my 964 last weekend after a 130 mile spirited drive through the countryside chasing a 997 GT3 and thought to myself….. What other 20 year old cars would do this with 100k miles on them. Solid build quality and performance to keep a 997 honest.
Thoroughly enjoyable driving also!
Id be having a quiet word with the GT3 owner and asking him why he didn't pop her into 3rd. If his reply was he had and 4th as well, well then I'd be either racing another mate, or your mate buying himself an old TR4 or similar. Thoroughly enjoyable driving also!
An Integrale is 20 plus years old, and would be all over a 964 on the twisties then and now and especially on unknown roads, and they were just as good if not better engine wise. In fact the 964 wouldn't have lasted as long engine wise.
Sorry to burst a rose tinted bubble, but I've owned both, and a 964 is still the car it was 20 years ago....... and that's def not either capable of keeping with a GT3 on quiet roads or back in the day even a partially good (let alone great) fast B road car that could match the likes of Lancia etc etc.
Edited by Wozy68 on Sunday 23 November 22:55
I guess such is the Internet that it attracts people that have such opinions without solid information.
What I should say that the odds were in my favour, gt3 with track setup in the wet vs my 964t with dampers set to soft.
smithyithy said:
This is kinda scary really..
I want a 964 Carrera more than anything but the prices are rising quicker than I can realistically save for one..
If the supply / demand of old Porsches is pushing the market prices up and up, there won't be any left to bloody buy
Keep saving, prices will probably come back to you at some point. Or they will stabilise and stop rising and your saving will catch-up!I want a 964 Carrera more than anything but the prices are rising quicker than I can realistically save for one..
If the supply / demand of old Porsches is pushing the market prices up and up, there won't be any left to bloody buy
Barnezy said:
g7jhp said:
I certainly agree aircooled Porsche prices are at a peak, but can't put an XJ220 as a sensible alternative.
A Porsche 964 turbo (3.3) S is very rare, has a low ownership cost, is far more usable and Porsche has a larger global fan base.
Whether it's worth the money isn't my call.
Most of the other cars you mention (Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo) are interesting cars but aren't as well built, usable and their brand aren't as desirable as Porsche.
I think the XJ220 is a fair comparison. It's a car from the same year and is as rare as the Turbo S. I doubt very many people buying a £425k car are considering the running costs and daily usability, as I suspect it will end up in a humidity controlled tent, appreciating in price... but it would be great if it were used. A Porsche 964 turbo (3.3) S is very rare, has a low ownership cost, is far more usable and Porsche has a larger global fan base.
Whether it's worth the money isn't my call.
Most of the other cars you mention (Lancia Intergrale's, RS Cosworth's, XJ220's, NSX's and Diablo) are interesting cars but aren't as well built, usable and their brand aren't as desirable as Porsche.
Yes Porsche has a large fan base, mostly because their cars are so accessible. You can own a Porsche from £1k nowadays and a 911 from £10k, plus they now sell over 160k cars a year. Compare that to Aston Martin who sold just over 4000 cars in 2013 and you understand why Porsche has such a large user community and following. But I would hardly say from a mutual point of view, that Porsche is a more desirable brand then a Lambo or a Jag XJ220, but people do like to belong and like the things they own.
The point I was making regarding running costs relates to looking at it as an investment. If the yearly running costs are much higher on an XJ220 than a 964 turbo S then it eats into any potential profit.
One thing that has kept the 'hypercars' prices down are the astronomical running costs.
The 964 turbo S is also a more usable classic than a XJ220. The Diablo also came into the not as usable camp. I believe both Lamborghini and Porsche currently have stronger global brands than Jaguar, although Jaguar's recent cars and their focus on their racing heritage is seeking to readdress that.
isaldiri said:
g7jhp said:
As the truly rare 911's (73RS, 64RS, 3.2 Clubsport etc) have rocketed people have started spending on the run of the mill models and they've gone up.
The 73 RS and 64 RS aren't really that rare surely? If I remember right, ~1500 73 RS and ~2000 64 RS were made? You're absolutely right, an XJ220 is an eccentric car that is unpractical and expensive to maintain..... but is that not what makes them so special? I just can't understand why a car like that which is one of a kind and will never happen again, that is so unique to anything else, can be £150k less than a variant of the 964? Take off the Porsche tinted glasses and remind yourself what an awesome car it was and still is!
Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
Barnezy said:
You're absolutely right, an XJ220 is an eccentric car that is unpractical and expensive to maintain..... but is that not what makes them so special? I just can't understand why a car like that which is one of a kind and will never happen again, that is so unique to anything else, can be £150k less than a variant of the 964? Take off the Porsche tinted glasses and remind yourself what an awesome car it was and still is!
Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
We agree on the 964 turbo S being overvalued but I wouldn't buy either as an investment or to drive.Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
If I had to pick something it would be a Countach or a Ferrari Dino.
graemel said:
It looks stunning. But it is an awfull lot of wedge. I hope it comes with the original Turbo S rear tail.
If that's not the Faldo car then it's presumably the other black car - I think there were only two if memory serves. That being the case then it had that same wing 10 years, or so, ago when it was at GT Classics in Andover. Back then it was for sale for ages for 50ish. GT Two said:
What other 20 year old cars would do this with 100k miles on
Any high performance car from that era that's been properly looked after with typical weakspots eradicated or mitigated by way of the growing knowledge base of specialists?1990s cars are very useable and compare well with more modern stuff from a driver appeal POV overall, not just Porsches. By that time, the manufacturers had learned how to adequately protect car bodies against rust and to build drivetrains that last the distance, everything we know about dynamics was pretty much known then, et cetera, yet the cars weren't yet loaded with troublesome electronics, mapping of electronic controls and driver aids had not wholesale replaced direct connections yet, cars didn't schlep a ton of in-car information/entertainment/communication gubbins along yet, et cetera.
It's the '90s stuff on old, rock hard rubber or Chinese budget tyres, cars that haven't seen a service bay in years, let alone a 4-wheel alignment rig, that gives older motors a bad name...
TIGA84 said:
Faldo car I think - its got the lairy steering wheel. I know the guy that owned the other black car. One of 8 UK cars IIRC.
This is where Porsche is very clever. "One of 8 UK cars". Well is it? Porsche sold around 62,000 964's and nearly 4k turbos. There were over 13 variants of the same car, some that sold in big numbers a some that didn't. What other car manufacture releases 13 versions of the same car? Porsche were effectively modifying current models, to boost sales (pun intended), as they were almost bankrupt and their attempt to build actual new models were fairly unsuccessful (928, 924, 944, 968). I doubt very much the the Turbo S was designed from the ground up... more likely someone in marketing said "lets take some bits off that turbo, increase the boost and we'll sell it as a new model". Surely people are wise to this? I believe the truest version in any 911 range has to be the C2S, as this is what the car is designed to be from day one.
Barnezy said:
You're absolutely right, an XJ220 is an eccentric car that is unpractical and expensive to maintain..... but is that not what makes them so special? I just can't understand why a car like that which is one of a kind and will never happen again, that is so unique to anything else, can be £150k less than a variant of the 964? Take off the Porsche tinted glasses and remind yourself what an awesome car it was and still is!
Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
Obviously the basic economic law of supply and demand mean the Porsche is wanted by far more people than the Jag XJ220. Autocar review of the XJ220 today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRaGLoR3wSM
Chris Harris races one in an XKR-S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInTigWaDFs
My point here is, that if you can buy this car at £150k less then the Porsche, then surely the Porsche is over valued?
The whole Porsche air cooled 'cult' has become huge.....
Part of the appeal of 911 ownership is the opportunity to stand in the carpark of Hedingham Castle once a year and discuss how much your 964 0r 993 has risen in value - I mean, where you gonna go in a XJ220 ?
You wouldn't even be allowed in the Porsche carpark and would have to park out back with the plebs.
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