Chris Harris speaks the GT3 marketplace

[wtdoom]

APOLO1 said:

when you have got 2.7RS owner's moving on to the likes of a 991GT3 and not looking back, says more than any jurno can, well in my eyes anyway....as for an agenda, yep I do think there is one, nothing to do with a GT3 though, more like something in order to attract viewing numbers.....

Edited by APOLO1 on Wednesday 28th January 11:24

Mate sometimes you REALLY miss the point

I would not swap 100 gt3 991 for my 2.7 rs ( unless I could sell the 991s and buy a couple more 2.7's)
I'm serious one hundred of them .


They are just so different and very difficult to compare

Edited by wtdoom on Wednesday 28th January 12:22

[keep it lit]

APOLO1 said:

Robbo66 said:

Exactly.

The inference that you needed to be a 'real driver' to extract maximum performance and feedback from what was quite clearly a compromised model initially and under 'development', and anyone preferring the later incarnations are simply Hedge funders who lunch at the Fat Duck, is also starting to grate.

There are hand wringers that will always fall at the feet of their chosen nomex cladded 'forum messiah', dribbling over their keyboards and struggling to type through tears of gratitude that their 'chosen one' has spared a little time to grace the forum with their infinite wisdom.

'Chris' has many swivel eyed disciples , but so it seems do a few on this thread.

However, without kneeling and reverting to first name terms, to think Harris has an 'agenda' is delusional.

I take it its raining in the valley's this morning.....

Must be fretting over a few new born lambs that have gone missing overnight .....

[Slippydiff]

lemmingjames said:

Slippy - how will you progress with your treatment if your still in the denial phase?

jackal said:

Harris does seem to have a 96 1 vs 2 agenda. The Gt3/RS lineage is littered with subjective favouring for an older variant over a more modern. There are plenty of folk who have stated that they prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 or RS. There are whole continents of people who wouldn't even go near a 991 variant. And quite a few 964RS devotees had a 993RS and were left wondering what all the fuss was about.

So why single out the 96 mk1/mk2 thing as a piece of mythology and the only piece of mythology when it comes to GT3's ? Smacks of a bee in a bonnet or trolling and it's not the first time he's banged on about it. Why keep throwing the technical papers at us ? You can do that with virtually any car to "prove" that its "better" than the model which preceeded it.

It's a car ... emotion, aesthetics and nostalgia will play more of a part than the spec sheet in determining who thinks whats best. There's a bit more to it than a set of bigger calipers and a few more ponies.

For me, as far as factory spec goes the key to the mk1 can be summed up by a word that I believe the late Russell Bulgin coined "MELD". The softer spring rate, the give in the chassis, the bite at the front. It's a very complete car that never forces a pause or a break in the flow of continuity. On UK roads it has a magic and a fluidity to it which is very compelling and distinctly divorced from the somewhat spiky nature of the mk2. That's before you've even started to talk about the looks.

But hey, they are both greats sitting in the last fractional percentile. You can easily make a mk2 handle like a mk1 and you can make a mk1 as strong at the top end as a mk2 and fit a set of 6 pots to boot so .... WGAF ? Why bring it up (again). My 993 has even less power and smaller brakes again but is better than both of them.

Cracking post Rich

To add to my earlier post, I don't believe Harris has an "agenda" regarding the sale of his 4.0 RS, and as Rich has said, I don't think he has an "agenda" when it comes to the Mk1 996 GT3, he does however appear to have what is rather a large a bee in his bonnet about them.

When you consider the Mk1 996 GT3 was the seminal watercooled GT 911, I find CH's views all the more strange.

But probe a little further and his views start to smack of hypocrisy. Show Harris an E30 M3 (THE seminal M3), and he'll wax lyrical (no make that deliriously) about them, and whilst they're wonderful cars in their own right, every iteration since has been faster, better braked etc etc because in short, for a road car, the E30 M3 lump was a wheezy, asthmatic, buzzy, harsh abomination, the dogleg gearbox a PITA (and if you want to have a pop at the Mk1 996 GT3's synchros, look no further than those in the M3's 'box.......) the brakes were typical M division (of that era) joke, and the corrosion proofing utterly laughable.

Yet Harris not only eulogises about them, he bought one ...... like a said, there's a dash of hypocrisy about the man

If you suffer from insomnia, you may want to take a look at this, I pretty much guarantee you'll be asleep within the first twenty minutes ........ :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcFPOPB0MmE&x-...

[Robbo66]

Slippy, you seem to have me confused with someone else....I've never mentioned the 964RS in any post.

Secondly, not and never will be a handwringer to 'Chrissy' or anyone else on here. Just agreed with him on the article.

Thirdly, it was an 'inference'. If I pay £80k on a car, I would expect the wheels to be pointing in the right direction from the outset.

'Civil' ?. Come on now, lighten up a little...differing opinions are what it's all about.

Again, you may have confused me with another poster, as you have done regarding the 964RS....if so, apology accepted.

[Robbo66]

keep it lit said:

Must be fretting over a few new born lambs that have gone missing overnight .....

Another month or so....should be fine then.

[Mermaid]

Slippydiff said:

E30
Yet Harris not only eulogises about them, he bought one ...... like a said, there's a dash of hypocrisy about the man

He did, he did but AFAIK trying to sell it.

Chris is an everyday bloke like the rest of us (+ he is a good journo & driver) and has good/bad experiences, has a hobby horse etc- don't we all.

He talks, people listen & dissect.

[Slippydiff]

Robbo66 said:

Slippy, you seem to have me confused with someone else....I've never mentioned the 964RS in any post.

Secondly, not and never will be a handwringer to 'Chrissy' or anyone else on here. Just agreed with him on the article.

Thirdly, it was an 'inference'. If I pay £80k on a car, I would expect the wheels to be pointing in the right direction from the outset.

'Civil' ?. Come on now, lighten up a little...differing opinions are what it's all about.

Again, you may have confused me with another poster, as you have done regarding the 964RS....if so, apology accepted.

Robbo, you are quite correct sir. I have indeed confused you with another contributor with "66" in his name. My humblest apologies Blame it on my advancing years

So, this Mk1, a brand new car ? On what tyres ? As I recall (but as always, I stand to be corrected !!) there were two options from the factory back in 1999-2000, those being Michelins Pilot Sports or Pirelli P Zero Rossos.
If the latter were fitted to your car, then I think it VERY likely, they were the cause of your tramlining issues.

But..... I regret to say it would be folly to expect (or indeed rely on) the car's geometry and ride heights being accurately set up from the factory. Most rear ends will have sagged as the new springs settled, that leaves the front to rear rake wrong (and affects the rear camber) and the front wheels flapping about in the breeze under acceleration. Add in some bumps and it all starts to feel a bit lively/fraught.

And whilst the geo was most likely "near enough", it wouldn't be as well/accurately set up as when done by a decent outfit such as Parr, Fearnsport, Center Gravity, Mike Burke @ Sports and Classic etc etc.

What you experienced isn't the norm, I went through the same process when I bought my first Mk1 back in 2005. Compared with my previous 964 RS and 993 RS, the GT3 felt like a hedge seeking missile.
I contacted a well respected independent and spoke to the proprietor, he informed me that the car should be hands off stable at 90mph on your average A road.
And fair dues to him, once they'd adjusted the geometry on it properly, it was !

When my car has been "fettled" (and as on apology for incorrectly accusing you of saying something you didn't !!) you would be very welcome to drive it. Rest assured, you'll not experience any waywardness or tramlining

Once again. My apologies

[ArcticGT3]

I do wonder when Harris last spent any meaningful time behind the wheel of one, it's easy to look back at any car from 16yrs ago and say "it needs more power," "it needs bigger brakes" ......... It's missing the point completely.

If anyone's interested. Here's the original road test from CAR magazine, July 1999. Not a mention of needing anything extra .

First production car. To go sub 8min at the ring, 0-100 ~ 10s, 300 Km/h all from a relatively small N/A engine that's neutered at a meagre 7800rpm compared to the cup version.

[Slippydiff]

ArcticGT3 said:

I do wonder when Harris last spent any meaningful time behind the wheel of one, it's easy to look back at any car from 16yrs ago and say "it needs more power," "it needs bigger brakes" ......... It's missing the point completely.

If anyone's interested. Here's the original road test from CAR magazine, July 1999. Not a mention of needing anything extra .

First production car. To go sub 8min at the ring, 0-100 ~ 10s, 300 Km/h all from a relatively small N/A engine that's neutered at a meagre 7800rpm compared to the cup version.

Indeed, Dickie Meaden was totally smitten with the car. IIRC that car came up for sale shortly after I'd sold my RHD example to Richard. it was cheap, and boy was I sorely tempted to buy it

Wanted to build a rep of this ...... :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grlqdthGIJE

[jackal]

here's a good'un

Edited by jackal on Wednesday 28th January 19:41

[sidicks]

Slippydiff said:

Indeed, Dickie Meaden was totally smitten with the car. IIRC that car came up for sale shortly after I'd sold my RHD example to Richard. it was cheap, and boy was I sorely tempted to buy it

I thought we had to take anything that journalists said with a pinch of salt as they were in the pay of the manufacturers?

(Or is that only where the 991 GT3 is concerned)....

[isaldiri]

ArcticGT3 said:

I do wonder when Harris last spent any meaningful time behind the wheel of one, it's easy to look back at any car from 16yrs ago and say "it needs more power," "it needs bigger brakes" ......... It's missing the point completely.

By and large though journalists have pretty good form at doing a hatchet job on the prior model of car that they could not stop singing it's praises when it was released so that they can eulogise about the newest latest model....

[IMIA]

It was a crap piece by CH and lazy journalism just to focus on the manual gearbox. I found the 6 GT3 1 vs 2 nonsense odd too. The first one was made on a completely separate assembly line by the motorsport dept as far as I can recall in fact maybe even the last 911 to be built on a separate assembly line - is this a myth? i also prefer the mk 1s headlights.

To be fair I think he was trying to warn us not to get carried away with our GT3 love if its more of an investment rather than just a bit of fun which is good advice. Prices can go down as well as up.

[wtdoom]

IMIA said:

It was a crap piece by CH and lazy journalism just to focus on the manual gearbox. I found the 6 GT3 1 vs 2 nonsense odd too. The first one was made on a completely separate assembly line by the motorsport dept as far as I can recall in fact maybe even the last 911 to be built on a separate assembly line - is this a myth? i also prefer the mk 1s headlights.

To be fair I think he was trying to warn us not to get carried away with our GT3 love if its more of an investment rather than just a bit of fun which is good advice. Prices can go down as well as up.

Gen 1 gt3 was built at weissach with the race cars

[Slippydiff]

sidicks said:

I thought we had to take anything that journalists said with a pinch of salt as they were in the pay of the manufacturers?

(Or is that only where the 991 GT3 is concerned)....

That depends on who you're talking to on here The retired Mr Demon says anything that any journalist says is untrue, unless they happen to say something good about the Cayman R/ Boxster Spyder, at which point it becomes gospel or fact ! !

Personally I take anything Monkey says with a pinch of salt, partially because when he spat his dummy out with Ferrari I was left thinking "Hmm, actually he's the real deal, someone prepared to nail his colours to the mast". But of course being the we he is, he quickly realised that biting the hand of one of the most important pimps in the business wasn't the smartest of things to have done.
He was able to "buy" back their favour, most journalists aren't able to do as much. After he'd once again curried favour with The prancing horse (which didn't really surprise me truth be known), he went down in my estimation a lot.

But his stance on PDK 'boxes, which as I understand it changed once he'd driven the 991 GT3 (I don't know for sure, I refuse to watch his videos ) was another nail in the coffin.

Take a look at the video I linked to earlier in this thread, whilst I appreciate he's trying to earn a living, watching him prostitute and ingratiate himself to/with the Yanks is truly cringeworthy.

His "Tell me I'm wrong" features on PH were nothing more than Jeremy Vinesque Radio 2 type drivel.
That most of his videos seem to be nothing more than self indulgent clips of him doing doughnuts, only grated further.

I've never met him. I'm sure he's a lovely chap, and clearly knows how to pedal. I just dislike his whiny voice, his me me me presenting style, and I have little regard for his journalistic "skills".

All a tad harsh ?

Possibly.

[braddo]

Mr Slippy, you're just jealous that Harris is the UK's best car journo.

[/handbags]

jackal said:

But hey, they are both greats sitting in the last fractional percentile. ... so .... WGAF ?

Forums tend to pedantry and one can get bogged down in it, innit. ^^^This is the key point.

And so is the conclusion from Mr Harris's article: "They are consistently the best cars I’ve driven in my professional life, and that above all else is what counts. Just be careful out there."

[Slippydiff]

braddo said:

Mr Slippy, you're just jealous that Harris is the UK's best car journo.

Well, maybe ..........





but probably not.
Plenty do think the sunlight emanates from Mr Harris ar*e, but I'm afraid I'm not one of them. In no particular order, Dickie Meaden, Jethro Bovington and Henry Catchpole are all far, far better motoring journalists IMO. If Henry were as comfortable in front of the camera as Bovington, we'd have two excellent (and unassuming) journos capable of hosting a TV show .....

[Slippydiff]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Thanks for that JL. rest assured I'll avoid viewing it at all costs

[jackal]

Watch the 'Getawayer' on youtube and specifically his review of the 991 GT3. An interesting new take on the car video. Not a broadside in sight either; just content that's properly relevant and accessible to real people who actually own these cars or are perhaps thinking of buying them.

As much as I like Harris's enthusiasm and adept verbal delivery, as an anorak and buyer I wish he spent more time telling us exactly how cars feel and what the primary sensations are, the control weights, the spring rates, the overall feeling of rigidity and stiffness etc. For me these are the defining cornerstones of our experience of a car.

I remember years ago reading a long review that pitched an evo against a scoobie and you'd be forgiven for thinking that they were a very similar experience but soon after when I got the chance to drive them both for myself, going from one to another was like going from a car made out of mosquito wings and balsa wood to a battle tank on 2000lb springs.

Going back to Bulgin, he was actually pretty good at that. After a piece of his you did have some inkling as to what the damm thing felt like .. and not when pitched 30 degrees sideways but just going along, you know, like, on a road, .... that thing called "driving".

[Robbo66]

Slippydiff said:

Robbo, you are quite correct sir. I have indeed confused you with another contributor with "66" in his name. My humblest apologies Blame it on my advancing years

So, this Mk1, a brand new car ? On what tyres ? As I recall (but as always, I stand to be corrected !!) there were two options from the factory back in 1999-2000, those being Michelins Pilot Sports or Pirelli P Zero Rossos.
If the latter were fitted to your car, then I think it VERY likely, they were the cause of your tramlining issues.

But..... I regret to say it would be folly to expect (or indeed rely on) the car's geometry and ride heights being accurately set up from the factory. Most rear ends will have sagged as the new springs settled, that leaves the front to rear rake wrong (and affects the rear camber) and the front wheels flapping about in the breeze under acceleration. Add in some bumps and it all starts to feel a bit lively/fraught.

And whilst the geo was most likely "near enough", it wouldn't be as well/accurately set up as when done by a decent outfit such as Parr, Fearnsport, Center Gravity, Mike Burke @ Sports and Classic etc etc.

What you experienced isn't the norm, I went through the same process when I bought my first Mk1 back in 2005. Compared with my previous 964 RS and 993 RS, the GT3 felt like a hedge seeking missile.
I contacted a well respected independent and spoke to the proprietor, he informed me that the car should be hands off stable at 90mph on your average A road.
And fair dues to him, once they'd adjusted the geometry on it properly, it was !

When my car has been "fettled" (and as on apology for incorrectly accusing you of saying something you didn't !!) you would be very welcome to drive it. Rest assured, you'll not experience any waywardness or tramlining

Once again. My apologies

No problem. Had it in 2000 with around 1500 on the clock from DL in Swindon. Not sure on the tyres.
My overriding thought when driving it home was that I'd made a terrible mistake on both the driving and I also had to look at it....which was disappointing.
Ran it on a few track days and obviously over the hills on my doorstep and realised my fears were indeed well founded.
I take your point that I should have had the geo looked at but I don't sleep in Nomex or suede ballet/driving shoes, and therefore assumed that this is how they were 'supposed' to be.
All I knew was the whole experience was awful, and I wish I'd kept the 964.
I'll take you up on your offer, very kind. You van have a pop in the 73....just mind the sheep