991/981 PCCBs: are they really that bad on track....
Discussion
Mario149 said:
I think for me personally the issue with PCCBs is that it feels like a risk along the lines of buying a 996 with their engine issues. 19 out of 20 people will be fine, but if you're unlucky (e.g. cook them on a track due to pads not being thick enough, come off and gravel chips them, their endurance isn't as advertised, damage them when changing a wheel etc etc) you're in for a mahussive bill of potentially, in extremis, 20%+ of the current value of the car on what is ultimately a consumable item which seems bonkers. I'd risk buying a 996, because at least if it did go bang I could upgrade the engine and get some of my money back at sale time.
Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
just replace PCCBs with steels ..Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
SFO said:
Mario149 said:
I think for me personally the issue with PCCBs is that it feels like a risk along the lines of buying a 996 with their engine issues. 19 out of 20 people will be fine, but if you're unlucky (e.g. cook them on a track due to pads not being thick enough, come off and gravel chips them, their endurance isn't as advertised, damage them when changing a wheel etc etc) you're in for a mahussive bill of potentially, in extremis, 20%+ of the current value of the car on what is ultimately a consumable item which seems bonkers. I'd risk buying a 996, because at least if it did go bang I could upgrade the engine and get some of my money back at sale time.
Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
just replace PCCBs with steels ..Not that it's massively relevant at this point, but can you imagine the resale issues on say a 981 Cayman S with PCCBs in say 6 years time at say £20k on 100k miles. You probably couldn't give it away for the punter fearing he might have £5k+ (and that's assuming cermaic disks become cheaper) bill just for disks in the next 20k miles
ETA: having looked at dimensions etc, it looks like you might be able to keep the calipers, in which case yes, you would just put steels on!
Edited by Mario149 on Friday 30th January 16:18
dreamcar said:
Before finally deciding on mine I spoke to the service departments at two separate OPC's, Swindon & Mid Sussex. Neither of them have ever had to replace a damaged PCCB rotor. Burgess Hill told me that had only ever had to replace a few rotors in 10 years due to wear.
In the unlikely event that you ever 'damage' one, it would be covered under the car's insurance.Koln-RS said:
rich83 said:
No chance... brakes are consumables.
Definitely - your insurance should cover most items for 'damage' (as opposed to normal wear and tear). That can even include tyres in some cases.Edited by Koln-RS on Friday 30th January 17:44
they are actually quite brittle;
gravel will damage a disc; hence the track use and kitty litter, and if it get stuck between the pad/caliper and disc ... think 78rpm record...
you can use the same callipers, just change the discs / pads
If I was in that situation(where the perfect car came up and had PCCB fitted) I'd buy it, replace the pics straight away with steels & change the pads
package up the PCCB discs and pads and keep them nice and warm and dry in a very safe place (probably under a fleece car liner, with a battery maintainer..) until I wanted to sell - then re-fit
gravel will damage a disc; hence the track use and kitty litter, and if it get stuck between the pad/caliper and disc ... think 78rpm record...
you can use the same callipers, just change the discs / pads
If I was in that situation(where the perfect car came up and had PCCB fitted) I'd buy it, replace the pics straight away with steels & change the pads
package up the PCCB discs and pads and keep them nice and warm and dry in a very safe place (probably under a fleece car liner, with a battery maintainer..) until I wanted to sell - then re-fit
red997 said:
they are actually quite brittle;
gravel will damage a disc; hence the track use and kitty litter, and if it get stuck between the pad/caliper and disc ... think 78rpm record...
you can use the same callipers, just change the discs / pads
If I was in that situation(where the perfect car came up and had PCCB fitted) I'd buy it, replace the pics straight away with steels & change the pads
package up the PCCB discs and pads and keep them nice and warm and dry in a very safe place (probably under a fleece car liner, with a battery maintainer..) until I wanted to sell - then re-fit
The surface of the discs is silicon carbide - it's not as fragile as you infer here. As I said above the two OPC's I spoke to have never had to replace a damaged rotor. Ever. One thing I will be doing though is to invest in a pair of guide bars to prevent any risk of damaging them during removal (as per guidance in the Owners Manual. These don't come with the car as standard.gravel will damage a disc; hence the track use and kitty litter, and if it get stuck between the pad/caliper and disc ... think 78rpm record...
you can use the same callipers, just change the discs / pads
If I was in that situation(where the perfect car came up and had PCCB fitted) I'd buy it, replace the pics straight away with steels & change the pads
package up the PCCB discs and pads and keep them nice and warm and dry in a very safe place (probably under a fleece car liner, with a battery maintainer..) until I wanted to sell - then re-fit
Interesting topic.
IMO, to sum it up:
"If money is no object, PCCB offer the best performance"
In the real world however, it is a different story. There are many road cars running the discs near 100,000 miles.
Pro's and Con's for both PCCB's and steels but you have a choice.
I love mine!
IceBoy
PS.........and mine are gen 1
IMO, to sum it up:
"If money is no object, PCCB offer the best performance"
In the real world however, it is a different story. There are many road cars running the discs near 100,000 miles.
Pro's and Con's for both PCCB's and steels but you have a choice.
I love mine!
IceBoy
PS.........and mine are gen 1
On track, warming up and cooling down is important.
My experience of PCCB's is that particularly on the Cayman where the steel brakes are marginal for track use, the PCCB's are tremendous.
Replace pads when half worn to minimise heat soak, and they should last a very long time.
At three years old I asked my dealer how the PCCB's were holding up -- and they said that only one of them was below the minimum thickness for new discs.
And I use them ... they are tremendous.
Of course any racing driver can destroy the best car if he or she is of a mind to ... and they do.
For those who would remove them from a new car and fit steels, isn't that rather like saving your Bride for the next guy ? (Sorry !!)
My experience of PCCB's is that particularly on the Cayman where the steel brakes are marginal for track use, the PCCB's are tremendous.
Replace pads when half worn to minimise heat soak, and they should last a very long time.
At three years old I asked my dealer how the PCCB's were holding up -- and they said that only one of them was below the minimum thickness for new discs.
And I use them ... they are tremendous.
Of course any racing driver can destroy the best car if he or she is of a mind to ... and they do.
For those who would remove them from a new car and fit steels, isn't that rather like saving your Bride for the next guy ? (Sorry !!)
ChrisW. said:
On track, warming up and cooling down is important.
My experience of PCCB's is that particularly on the Cayman where the steel brakes are marginal for track use, the PCCB's are tremendous.
Replace pads when half worn to minimise heat soak, and they should last a very long time.
At three years old I asked my dealer how the PCCB's were holding up -- and they said that only one of them was below the minimum thickness for new discs.
And I use them ... they are tremendous.
Of course any racing driver can destroy the best car if he or she is of a mind to ... and they do.
For those who would remove them from a new car and fit steels, isn't that rather like saving your Bride for the next guy ? (Sorry !!)
+1 as I said earlier on. They are very good but they need more "management" if used on track.They are not fit and forget like they would be on a purely road driven car. Price of steel rotors is a couple hundred quid as apposed to £4k+ for one ceramic. Its not hard to see why trackday enthusiasts pop the steelies on.My experience of PCCB's is that particularly on the Cayman where the steel brakes are marginal for track use, the PCCB's are tremendous.
Replace pads when half worn to minimise heat soak, and they should last a very long time.
At three years old I asked my dealer how the PCCB's were holding up -- and they said that only one of them was below the minimum thickness for new discs.
And I use them ... they are tremendous.
Of course any racing driver can destroy the best car if he or she is of a mind to ... and they do.
For those who would remove them from a new car and fit steels, isn't that rather like saving your Bride for the next guy ? (Sorry !!)
Steels are not fit and forget either on track and also you have to manage heat the GT3 boys saying they get 3 track days from a set of steels ! and Alcon are about £1600 and you get 10/15 track days.
ALso you can buy a better longer lasting Ceramic disk now which bolts onto the Porsche Bell, a pair is £3300 inc vat.
So a Ceramic option is now quite easy to look after and also if road use might save you money over steels.
" The kits are designed as a direct replacement for the standard fit Porsche PCCB brakes. Our next-generation technology means they run at a much lower operating temperature (around 100C less) providing improved performance and a much longer life, particularly on track. "
be interesting to see how many track days a set of Surface Transforms Ceramics would last.
ALso you can buy a better longer lasting Ceramic disk now which bolts onto the Porsche Bell, a pair is £3300 inc vat.
So a Ceramic option is now quite easy to look after and also if road use might save you money over steels.
" The kits are designed as a direct replacement for the standard fit Porsche PCCB brakes. Our next-generation technology means they run at a much lower operating temperature (around 100C less) providing improved performance and a much longer life, particularly on track. "
be interesting to see how many track days a set of Surface Transforms Ceramics would last.
Edited by PorscheGT4 on Monday 2nd February 09:11
I think Supercup did revert to steel.
I spoke with Geoff Turral about it when he was MD at Porsche, and he said they were running them for development and promotional purposes. The additional cost was actually marginal because of the life of the discs, but in racing many components are 'lifed', so they were often being changed prematurely.
Carbon and ceramic brakes are in widespread use in racing and aviation.
I spoke with Geoff Turral about it when he was MD at Porsche, and he said they were running them for development and promotional purposes. The additional cost was actually marginal because of the life of the discs, but in racing many components are 'lifed', so they were often being changed prematurely.
Carbon and ceramic brakes are in widespread use in racing and aviation.
Geneve said:
I think Supercup did revert to steel.
I spoke with Geoff Turral about it when he was MD at Porsche, and he said they were running them for development and promotional purposes. The additional cost was actually marginal because of the life of the discs, but in racing many components are 'lifed', so they were often being changed prematurely.
Carbon and ceramic brakes are in widespread use in racing and aviation.
True carbon racing brakes are very different from carbon ceramic brakes as found in road cars....I spoke with Geoff Turral about it when he was MD at Porsche, and he said they were running them for development and promotional purposes. The additional cost was actually marginal because of the life of the discs, but in racing many components are 'lifed', so they were often being changed prematurely.
Carbon and ceramic brakes are in widespread use in racing and aviation.
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