Where have all the 993 C2's gone
Discussion
Wozy68 do you have anything good to say about the 964through those 993 tinted glasses?
Reports at the 964 launch lauded the improvements over the 3.2 cars and rightly so. Drive the two today and the improvements are easily identifiable. Today the 64 is also seen as the best of the original 911 concept before NVH and build costs became paramount. The 993 is a fine car no doubt, but the very things that made it an advancement on the 964 back in 1994 work against it today. The looks haven't aged as well and the raw 964 is always going to appeal in a car not used every day.
Reports at the 964 launch lauded the improvements over the 3.2 cars and rightly so. Drive the two today and the improvements are easily identifiable. Today the 64 is also seen as the best of the original 911 concept before NVH and build costs became paramount. The 993 is a fine car no doubt, but the very things that made it an advancement on the 964 back in 1994 work against it today. The looks haven't aged as well and the raw 964 is always going to appeal in a car not used every day.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes in my view. You can find out for yourself soon 
Objectively speaking your Cayman feels about 40 years newer and its like comparing a steam train to the starship enterprise especially the later turbo water-cooled cars. The old cars are far more charming but dynamically they cannot hold a candle to the newer cars imo. Having said that if I had to pick one it would be very tough indeed.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The 993 was the first departure from the traditional 911 shape introduced to look more modern. Today it falls into a no mans land in that it fails to look either traditional 911 or modern 911. Similar can be said of the chassis, it is more refined than its predecessors but these days far from cutting edge and many prefer the raw feel of the earlier 964 chassis. The major talking point back in 1990 were the plastic bumpers, radical back then but normal on every 911 since. Performance wise there is no difference between either model.
ras62 said:
The 993 was the first departure from the traditional 911 shape introduced to look more modern. Today it falls into a no mans land in that it fails to look either traditional 911 or modern 911. Similar can be said of the chassis, it is more refined than its predecessors but these days far from cutting edge and many prefer the raw feel of the earlier 964 chassis.
The major talking point back in 1990 were the plastic bumpers, radical back then but normal on every 911 since. Performance wise there is no difference between either model.
The 993 is significantly faster than the 964 in most areas, especially with the Weissach rear suspension.The major talking point back in 1990 were the plastic bumpers, radical back then but normal on every 911 since. Performance wise there is no difference between either model.
However, its all irrelevant really, I love them both for differing reasons.
Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I really think one is hard pressed to argue that the 993
has not aged well in looks- put a mint 993 next to any model/year of 911 and it still looks the business.
I have not driven a 964 so can't comment on the handling- but I took my 993 for a spin cross country recently after a period of hibernation and the speed/handling just blew me away...even after 12,000 miles in it the novelty sure as hell ain't worn off.
ras62 said:
...The 993 was the first departure from the traditional 911 shape introduced to look more modern...
Every evolution of the 911 has brought something new to the table to make it look more modern. The change to impact bumpers was way more contentious in its day than the change of the uprightness of the headlamps between the 964 and the 993. The change in look between 3.2 and 964 was pretty significant itself.Wozy68 said:
When people talk comparing a C2 993 as being boring compared to a C2 964 then you really know they are talking crap. Same as if they think it's a better drivers 911 compared to a 3.2, again that are talking crap.
Basically IMO they built the 964 to be a car for all types of drivers (ie for all tastes) and because of that Porache failed with it.
Wozy68 you need to accept people have opinion which may be different from your own. This isn't necessarily right or wrong it happens because we're all different and it makes the world a more interesting place.Basically IMO they built the 964 to be a car for all types of drivers (ie for all tastes) and because of that Porache failed with it.
I preferred (IMO) the 3.2 Carrera to my 993 C4 because I liked the rawer drive of the earlier 3.2 and the classic 911 looks.
The 993 C4 was faster and more refined, but I (again IMO) found it had lost the rawness, wasn't quite so alive, didn't like the plastic bumpers and the performance was disappointing.
If you want to move the game on the water cooled cars offer better performance, refinement and usability.
Newer doesn't necessarily mean better - look at the opinions around the 997 v 991 GT3.
Porsche have been trying to broaden the appeal of the 911 since the 80's to sell more. Each version has become easier to drive and more refined, the 993 is no different.
We're all lucky enough to sample some of Porsche's finest, enjoy it!
g7jhp said:
Wozy68 said:
mollytherocker said:
The 964 is dull? What utter b
ks. Totally undermines the article!
Why, owned one? It was the worse 911 I've owned, and I've owned 5 different aircooled 911s.ks. Totally undermines the article!You read an article 10 years ago and the review would have said something along those lines. The 964 was cheap for so many years for many a good reason. When it came out it was crap. Simple as that.
Still not an exciting car though IMO.
I'm not a major fan of the 993 never have been just don't get it, and yes its subjective each to their own.
Crimp said:
I test drove a 993 C2 at SCOM some yrs ago now and it was better than the 993 C4S I owned.
Still not an exciting car though IMO.
I'm not a major fan of the 993 never have been just don't get it, and yes its subjective each to their own.
It is very subjective and I think that ALL of the air cooled cars are marmite in slightly different ways. The water cooled cars are far more friendly and easy to use.Still not an exciting car though IMO.
I'm not a major fan of the 993 never have been just don't get it, and yes its subjective each to their own.
For me though, the key thing about the 964 and 993 is that they seem crap below 7/10s. The dash is all over the place, the driving position is stupid, they bob about all over the place, and yet they are quite refined. But they are multi layered.
Its only when you extend them that they start to come alive in your hands and become exciting. In that way, maybe they have a narrow operating window.
It really depends what butters your muffin really.
mollytherocker said:
Crimp said:
I test drove a 993 C2 at SCOM some yrs ago now and it was better than the 993 C4S I owned.
Still not an exciting car though IMO.
I'm not a major fan of the 993 never have been just don't get it, and yes its subjective each to their own.
It is very subjective and I think that ALL of the air cooled cars are marmite in slightly different ways. The water cooled cars are far more friendly and easy to use.Still not an exciting car though IMO.
I'm not a major fan of the 993 never have been just don't get it, and yes its subjective each to their own.
For me though, the key thing about the 964 and 993 is that they seem crap below 7/10s. The dash is all over the place, the driving position is stupid, they bob about all over the place, and yet they are quite refined. But they are multi layered.
Its only when you extend them that they start to come alive in your hands and become exciting. In that way, maybe they have a narrow operating window.
It really depends what butters your muffin really.
Love the comments
"The dash is all over the place, the driving position is stupid, they bob about all over the place"
Spot on that, but hey that's why they are interesting!
I agree with Wozy68 to an extent….it was sometimes hard to know what the rear of my old 964 C2 Targa was up to. I had a few spins on track in the dry where I couldn’t fathom the cause as it wasn’t under excessive acceleration or deceleration. Even Andy Walsh spun it on a wet North Weald airfield. I just accepted this as a 911 trait. It was perfectly safe car for normal fast road driving, but unpredictable at the limit. That was part of my love for it…trying to work out what it was going to do and get the best out of it.
So I would never describe the 964 as dull. It could be steered on the throttle more than any car I’ve ever experienced and the engine / exhaust noise is utterly addictive. I miss this.
My 993 feels much faster in a straight line…probably helped by the shorter gearing of the 6 speed box. It is also feels massively faster round the bends and I feel much more in control of the rear end. It is also slightly more refined and has a better ride.
If I was forced to sell my 993 for an equivalent 964 then I wouldn’t be upset. They’re both great cars.
So I would never describe the 964 as dull. It could be steered on the throttle more than any car I’ve ever experienced and the engine / exhaust noise is utterly addictive. I miss this.
My 993 feels much faster in a straight line…probably helped by the shorter gearing of the 6 speed box. It is also feels massively faster round the bends and I feel much more in control of the rear end. It is also slightly more refined and has a better ride.
If I was forced to sell my 993 for an equivalent 964 then I wouldn’t be upset. They’re both great cars.
Something overlooked on this thread are the differences between all these cars. The same 1996 MY cars can ALL feel different. Driving one 993 C2 or C4 is only representative of that particular car. Loads of these cars have shonky geo, knackered or indifferent suspension with bushes perished or have suffered in some other way rendering the experience not necessarily accurate. These and 964s are all old cars now that have passed through the hands of many owners. Some of these cars are fitter and better looked after than others, thus the drive can be different.
How many owners have fitted different springs, dampers, tyres or suffered aco ident damage over the years?
I sold my first Elise and bought another new one shortly afterward. It drove nothing like the first one despite being identical spec. The geo was way different. The engine, the same Rover 1.8, was breathless and considerably down on power to the first car. Yet they were the same car.
How many owners have fitted different springs, dampers, tyres or suffered aco ident damage over the years?
I sold my first Elise and bought another new one shortly afterward. It drove nothing like the first one despite being identical spec. The geo was way different. The engine, the same Rover 1.8, was breathless and considerably down on power to the first car. Yet they were the same car.
highway said:
Something overlooked on this thread are the differences between all these cars. The same 1996 MY cars can ALL feel different. Driving one 993 C2 or C4 is only representative of that particular car. Loads of these cars have shonky geo, knackered or indifferent suspension with bushes perished or have suffered in some other way rendering the experience not necessarily accurate. These and 964s are all old cars now that have passed through the hands of many owners. Some of these cars are fitter and better looked after than others, thus the drive can be different.
How many owners have fitted different springs, dampers, tyres or suffered aco ident damage over the years?
I sold my first Elise and bought another new one shortly afterward. It drove nothing like the first one despite being identical spec. The geo was way different. The engine, the same Rover 1.8, was breathless and considerably down on power to the first car. Yet they were the same car.
I completely agree with you (the Elise geometry always needed resetting), these cars don't generally feel the same and do need to be set-up properly.How many owners have fitted different springs, dampers, tyres or suffered aco ident damage over the years?
I sold my first Elise and bought another new one shortly afterward. It drove nothing like the first one despite being identical spec. The geo was way different. The engine, the same Rover 1.8, was breathless and considerably down on power to the first car. Yet they were the same car.
My 993 C4 was relatively new and in mint condition when I owned it (only has 28k miles on the clock) and my 2nd 3.2 Carrera had a complete refresh including all new suspension just after I bought it.
g7jhp said:
Wozy68 said:
When people talk comparing a C2 993 as being boring compared to a C2 964 then you really know they are talking crap. Same as if they think it's a better drivers 911 compared to a 3.2, again that are talking crap.
Basically IMO they built the 964 to be a car for all types of drivers (ie for all tastes) and because of that Porache failed with it.
Wozy68 you need to accept people have opinion which may be different from your own. This isn't necessarily right or wrong it happens because we're all different and it makes the world a more interesting place.Basically IMO they built the 964 to be a car for all types of drivers (ie for all tastes) and because of that Porache failed with it.
I preferred (IMO) the 3.2 Carrera to my 993 C4 because I liked the rawer drive of the earlier 3.2 and the classic 911 looks.
The 993 C4 was faster and more refined, but I (again IMO) found it had lost the rawness, wasn't quite so alive, didn't like the plastic bumpers and the performance was disappointing.
If you want to move the game on the water cooled cars offer better performance, refinement and usability.
Newer doesn't necessarily mean better - look at the opinions around the 997 v 991 GT3.
Porsche have been trying to broaden the appeal of the 911 since the 80's to sell more. Each version has become easier to drive and more refined, the 993 is no different.
We're all lucky enough to sample some of Porsche's finest, enjoy it!
My opinion is that I did not rate the 964 when I owned one over 10 years ago (I think using the word crap was a mistake, a bit excessive and I apologise
), and nor did a lot of others (hence why they were so cheap), compared to how people/owners judge them now (when they are so expensive). My argument (based on fact) was purely that they were never that well rated when they were new, and not well thought of for the next 15 years, and IMO quite rightly so, and in that respect Dron was right on what he has written in this months Octane magazine.
Bizarre how for some unknown reason, the negatives are no longer valid; and especially as their values have risen. The lack of enjoyment of driving one back in the day compared to some other 911s, has somehow diminished.
Edited by Wozy68 on Friday 6th March 22:22
Wozy68 said:
I understand what you are saying and you are quite right, we each have our own opinion and quite rightly so.
My opinion is that I did not rate the 964 when I owned one over 10 years ago, and nor did a lot of others (hence why they were so cheap), compared to how people/owners judge them now (when they are so expensive).
My argument (based on fact) was purely that they were never that well rated when they were new, and not well thought of for the next 15 years, and IMO quite rightly so.
Bizarre how for some unknown reason, the negatives are no longer valid; and especially as their values have risen. The lack of enjoyment of driving one back in the day compared to some other 911s, has somehow diminished.
I Get what you say, but I think the landscape has changed.My opinion is that I did not rate the 964 when I owned one over 10 years ago, and nor did a lot of others (hence why they were so cheap), compared to how people/owners judge them now (when they are so expensive).
My argument (based on fact) was purely that they were never that well rated when they were new, and not well thought of for the next 15 years, and IMO quite rightly so.
Bizarre how for some unknown reason, the negatives are no longer valid; and especially as their values have risen. The lack of enjoyment of driving one back in the day compared to some other 911s, has somehow diminished.
Think of it this way, the 964 is like sex without a condom.
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