Mk1 996 GT3 to Gen 2 997 GT3

[Cheburator mk2]

Of course I am talking my own book in a way, but I think if the OP was to "throw" £35k at his 996.1 GT3 you will probably need a 991 to go quicker and even that is not guaranteed. I doubt a visit to JZM will produce a meaningful conclusion - JZM are in the business of buying/selling cars for profit, the bid/offer in LHD/RHD will be even bigger than usual. If the OP has been happy with a LHD car for 9yrs, then he should look at 997s for sale in Germany - both within the Porsche Zentrum network and from private sellers/specialists. He may, just may find that he comes flat on the trade if he is willing to accept higher mileage on the 997 car...

[Singh911]

Good point on the lhd. I have no issues with lhd at all, im not sure if there are issues with rhd like there were in the air-cooled cars (offset pedals and the like) but lhd feels completely natural. On the euro trips, you are on the "correct" side of the car and in the uk you step out onto the pavement once you park.
Maybe I need to drive a 997 - as I said, its not about pure pace, i'm nowhere near exploiting the limits of the 996. Its more about feel and feedback.

Thinking maybe a cup steering wheel and some suspension updates may be the way to proceed.

[Scooty100]

Singh911 said:

Good point on the lhd. I have no issues with lhd at all, im not sure if there are issues with rhd like there were in the air-cooled cars (offset pedals and the like) but lhd feels completely natural. On the euro trips, you are on the "correct" side of the car and in the uk you step out onto the pavement once you park.
Maybe I need to drive a 997 - as I said, its not about pure pace, i'm nowhere near exploiting the limits of the 996. Its more about feel and feedback.

Thinking maybe a cup steering wheel and some suspension updates may be the way to proceed.

Agreed. For people that drive a Yaris LHD is a pain in the ass but for enthusiasts 911's in LHD feels more 'pure' imo

[nsm3]

pete a said:

Singh911 said:

That JZM advert for their gen 2. Quoting from the ad "we are happy to report that the ECU data shows no signs of over revs in five of the six ranges."

So they're saying there are over revs in one of the six ranges?

Rev range one not an issue, anything 3-6 worry about, 1-2 don't worry.

Don't know if this is relevant to the Gen 2 997, but on the Gen 1, all over rev ranges are caused by a downshift over rev, not by hitting the Rev limiter at full chat. I had this tested 3 times when I owned mine, always came back with zero over revs. As said though, 1-2 shouldn't be a problem and as the Gen 1's are getting to 9 years old, they will soon be out of the Porsche Warranty system, which was the only real obstacle to having over revs anyway?

[Slippydiff]

Singh911 said:

Good point on the lhd. I have no issues with lhd at all, im not sure if there are issues with rhd like there were in the air-cooled cars (offset pedals and the like) but lhd feels completely natural. On the euro trips, you are on the "correct" side of the car and in the uk you step out onto the pavement once you park.
Maybe I need to drive a 997 - as I said, its not about pure pace, i'm nowhere near exploiting the limits of the 996. Its more about feel and feedback.

Thinking maybe a cup steering wheel and some suspension updates may be the way to proceed.

You'll gain some pace in the newer car courtesy of it's slightly superior engine (though with the mods you carried out last year, the difference will be negligible I suspect)

If you're looking for feel, feedback, tactility and engagement, you'll not not find what you're wanting in the 997. The 996 GT3 was the zenith when it comes to these subtle nuances in the watercooled cars.

I think you've massively undervalued your car, it would probably sell better in mainland europe than the UK.
I know I'm most likely viewed as being parochial when it comes to the Mk1 996 GT3, but it was a very special car, and as the seminal GT3, I think their values will rise massively over the next 5-10 years. Sell now and you'll regret it...........

No doubt if you were to roadtest a Gen 2 997 GT3 at JZM, you'd be smitten by it's "newness" and easily accessible performance, but after the honeymoon period you may crave the intimacy of the older car along with it's more tactile nature.

I always find that after a period of driving modern stuff, getting into and driving the 996 GT3 is a real shock as it seems so agricultural, it's control weights heavy and the whole experience is a noisy and visceral one. If you drive the car gently, all the above seem rather pointless. But driven in the zone as it's makers intended, everything gels and it all makes perfect sense.

In my experience it's more difficult to access that real fun "zone" in a 997 GT3 on the road as much of the time, such are it's capabilities. I've bought and tried the Gen 1 997 GT3 experience on two occasions, but on both occasions I ended up back in a Mk 1 996 GT3. Read into that what you will ..........

[Richie200]

Slippydiff said:

Singh911 said:

Good point on the lhd. I have no issues with lhd at all, im not sure if there are issues with rhd like there were in the air-cooled cars (offset pedals and the like) but lhd feels completely natural. On the euro trips, you are on the "correct" side of the car and in the uk you step out onto the pavement once you park.
Maybe I need to drive a 997 - as I said, its not about pure pace, i'm nowhere near exploiting the limits of the 996. Its more about feel and feedback.

Thinking maybe a cup steering wheel and some suspension updates may be the way to proceed.

You'll gain some pace in the newer car courtesy of it's slightly superior engine (though with the mods you carried out last year, the difference will be negligible I suspect)

If you're looking for feel, feedback, tactility and engagement, you'll not not find what you're wanting in the 997. The 996 GT3 was the zenith when it comes to these subtle nuances in the watercooled cars.

I think you've massively undervalued your car, it would probably sell better in mainland europe than the UK.
I know I'm most likely viewed as being parochial when it comes to the Mk1 996 GT3, but it was a very special car, and as the seminal GT3, I think their values will rise massively over the next 5-10 years. Sell now and you'll regret it...........

No doubt if you were to roadtest a Gen 2 997 GT3 at JZM, you'd be smitten by it's "newness" and easily accessible performance, but after the honeymoon period you may crave the intimacy of the older car along with it's more tactile nature.

I always find that after a period of driving modern stuff, getting into and driving the 996 GT3 is a real shock as it seems so agricultural, it's control weights heavy and the whole experience is a noisy and visceral one. If you drive the car gently, all the above seem rather pointless. But driven in the zone as it's makers intended, everything gels and it all makes perfect sense.

In my experience it's more difficult to access that real fun "zone" in a 997 GT3 on the road as much of the time, such are it's capabilities. I've bought and tried the Gen 1 997 GT3 experience on two occasions, but on both occasions I ended up back in a Mk 1 996 GT3. Read into that what you will ..........

As Singh911 intends Slippy; when you fit passives and a Cup steering wheel to the 997, all the things you crave from the 996 (rawness and tactility) combined with the power from the updated Mezger, create such a wonderful balance.

[Slippydiff]

Richie200 said:

As Singh911 intends Slippy; when you fit passives and a Cup steering wheel to the 997, all the things you crave from the 996 (rawness and tactility) combined with the power from the updated Mezger, create such a wonderful balance.

I'm doubtful

But the OP's post is open to interpretation, Cup wheel and suspension upgrades to his 996 was how I saw it, you thought he referred to doing the same to a 997 ?

[hondansx]

Why would people be suggesting Cup diffs etc. for the OP's criteria of European jaunts and the "odd track day"?

I suspect the 996 has lasted in his hands because it is actually fairly easy to live with. From what iv'e read, the gen 1 996 GT3 was softer than any GT3 produced since, so i'm not sure stiffening the suspension and other such modifications would actually improve the car in the context of it's use.

If i had the money, i may have bought a £95k 997.2 GT3, but i am put off by write-ups that it is noticeably stiffer than the Gen 1 car. That's a big deal for me, given it would be a daily driver, so the Gen 1 somewhat chose itself.

[Cheburator mk2]

hondansx said:

Why would people be suggesting Cup diffs etc. for the OP's criteria of European jaunts and the "odd track day"?

I suspect the 996 has lasted in his hands because it is actually fairly easy to live with. From what iv'e read, the gen 1 996 GT3 was softer than any GT3 produced since, so i'm not sure stiffening the suspension and other such modifications would actually improve the car in the context of it's use.

If i had the money, i may have bought a £95k 997.2 GT3, but i am put off by write-ups that it is noticeably stiffer than the Gen 1 car. That's a big deal for me, given it would be a daily driver, so the Gen 1 somewhat chose itself.

You hit the nail on the head...

When I was looking for my 996.1 CS I test drove and put a deposit down on a Swiss car with about 50km on the clock. It had been heavily tracked in the first 10yrs of its life. However, it had been put back to standard with the exception of cup diff plates, and everything was brand new - shocks, bushes, wheel bearings, brakes, gearbox synchros etc. It was such a wonderful experience to drive - did not feel particularly fast, but it soaked the road and provided just the right amount of feedback that I dreamed of jumping in it, driving to the Ring, doing ten laps and then continuing on to the South of France, with my wife content in the passenger seat.

Then I saw MY car for sale in Germany and I just could not resist the pull of the mean machine created by Manthey. Often though, I feel that something has been lost while Manthey fettled it - the car wants to be driven at 11/10 most of the time and could be unbearable on the rubbish roads in the SE. My wife loves it, but has categorically stated that she would not be driven long distances in it, which somewhat spoils the idea of the GT3 as the gentleman's express/track toy. Don't get me wrong - overall I don't regret my choice, but sometimes, a car can be much more than the raw performance stats, hence perhaps the OP should stick with the 996.1 and do a Patek on it

[Singh911]

I was referring to my mk1 when thinking of a cup steering wheel and refreshing/improving the suspension (car is still on its' original shocks, bushes etc.

I hear what is being said about tactility. That is what i value most, way above outright speed. The car is probably too quick for most roads as it is. My most memorable drives tend to be when one is somewhere very agreeable with an open road - the Gorges du Tarn canyon country comes to mind last summer, when i could feel the steering writhing and wriggling around, flicking the car one way and then the other through endless S bends. I wouldnt trade that feedback for more speed.

I think i'm tending toward refreshing the suspension - maybe i'm getting old(er) but the car seems more crashy on the bumps than it used to. A cup wheel to increase the feel even more.

Increasingly get the feeling the car is a keeper! Thanks for all the valuable input.

[ttdan]

Singh911 said:

Good point on the lhd. I have no issues with lhd at all, im not sure if there are issues with rhd like there were in the air-cooled cars (offset pedals and the like) but lhd feels completely natural. On the euro trips, you are on the "correct" side of the car and in the uk you step out onto the pavement once you park.
Maybe I need to drive a 997 - as I said, its not about pure pace, i'm nowhere near exploiting the limits of the 996. Its more about feel and feedback.

Thinking maybe a cup steering wheel and some suspension updates may be the way to proceed.

In a RHD 997 the brake pedal is pretty much directly in line with the centre of the steering wheel. The first time I sat in a LHD 997 IT was the clutch pedal that was in line with the centre of the steering wheel. In this regard the RHD car felt better positioned. I suppose it was what I was used to but it was the LHD car that felt a bit odd. Not sure on 996.

[Slippydiff]

Singh911 said:

I was referring to my mk1 when thinking of a cup steering wheel and refreshing/improving the suspension (car is still on its' original shocks, bushes etc.

I hear what is being said about tactility. That is what i value most, way above outright speed. The car is probably too quick for most roads as it is. My most memorable drives tend to be when one is somewhere very agreeable with an open road - the Gorges du Tarn canyon country comes to mind last summer, when i could feel the steering writhing and wriggling around, flicking the car one way and then the other through endless S bends. I wouldnt trade that feedback for more speed.

I think i'm tending toward refreshing the suspension - maybe i'm getting old(er) but the car seems more crashy on the bumps than it used to. A cup wheel to increase the feel even more.

Increasingly get the feeling the car is a keeper! Thanks for all the valuable input.

How many miles has the car done ? If the car is on it's original dampers and springs, the dampers will be toast and the springs tired and most likely corroded.
Get the dampers off and refurbished by Bilstein UK (£600 worst case scenario) and fit a new set of OE springs (approx £400), you'll be amazed at how the "crashiness" goes, only to replaced by the ride the car should have, that being nicely damped but compliant and well controlled.

You'll have to adjust the ride heights whilst you're doing the above work, my guess is your car will be running lower than it should be. Along with the new dampers, springs the increased ride heights will transform how the car drives.

Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 24th February 22:04

[Singh911]

Thanks for that - 23k miles on the original shocks etc. The springs I can sort but how does one do the Bilstein refurb? Do they send a refurbished set and I send them my ones? Or do I take the car to them and leave them to it? Or will any indie do the job.
Cheers

[Slippydiff]

Singh911 said:

Thanks for that - 23k miles on the original shocks etc. The springs I can sort but how does one do the Bilstein refurb? Do they send a refurbished set and I send them my ones? Or do I take the car to them and leave them to it? Or will any indie do the job.
Cheers

You'll need to get an indy to remove your existing dampers from the car and sent to :

David Masters
Workshop Manager
ThyssenKrupp Bilstein Tuning GmbH
Unit 3 Swannington Road
Broughton Astley LE9 6TU
Leicestershire
England
[phone]
[phone] fax

I suggest you ring David beforehand (he's busy so keep trying rather than relying on answerphone messages getting to him) to book your dampers in, also make sure he's aware it's a Mk1 996 GT3, as you don't want the valving from a pesky Mk2 ......

They'll then send them back to you or indy of choice to refit to the car. A straightforward damper overhaul is between £60-80, if the damper rods are toast, you'll need add another £25 to each damper. With yours being such low mileage, they shouldn't need new rods
At 16 years old and 23 k miles, your original dampers will be on the cusp of being "tired", if not on mileage, then definitely on age.

[Singh911]

Brilliant info as ever - thank you. I will get on with that lot and hope all's done before the daffodils come out.

[5517]

m33ufo said:

As has already been mentioned, the link you posted has long gone. Very frustrating that the powers that be in Pidtonheads Towers don't sort out the mess some dealers are making of the classifieds.

Agreed.
I have contacted PH towers about it and they blame software which is weird coz software/settings can be changed almost instantly.
It really is a mess with dud adverts being reprocessed and put to the top every morning.
At one time i thought PH may eliminate Top Marques (Autotrader) but there is now zero chance of that.

[m33ufo]

I reported an ad a couple of weeks ago but to date it's still there in the for sale classifieds "Now Sold...Similar Cars Wanted!".

Possibly just as bad if you look at the Porsche Parts & Accessories section. We now have apparently hundreds of GSF ads for filters and belts filling up the space.

[Slippydiff]

m33ufo said:

Possibly just as bad if you look at the Porsche Parts & Accessories section. We now have apparently hundreds of GSF ads for filters and belts filling up the space.

Definitely as bad as, in fact it's an utter shambles. The PH classifieds used to be the go to place for car ads and parts ads, now it's not worth bothering with as it's cluttered up with all kinds of trade sh*t. Petrol Ted would be turning in his f*cking grave.

If you've Porsche parts to sell, flog 'em on 911uk.com, it's far easier to load them (you start a thread) and your advert will be easier to find primarily because some trade bell end isn't breaking a 924 and listing every f8cking nut, bolt, washer, piston ring, grommet, seat bracket, bulb and p*ssing relay on there

And breeeeeath .......

[m33ufo]

[neilsss]

Actually, I bought the 997.2 in that ad. Top car. I haven't driven a 996.1
for a while but it seemed much happier on track than on the road