How much is a 991GT3RS allocation worth?

[wtdoom]

Mermaid said:

Well respected.

Thank you , Mate that's very kind of you and I am humbled .

I must add I have only driven a gt3 for a couple of hours . It's a very special car but there is a loss of interaction between the car and the driver . Traditional 911 methods of extracting speed like trail braking for example are less important . 991 is faster but certainly easier to extract the speed from too . I didn't want to be the first to say it but since others have made the point , I too given the choice would rather have a 996 or 997 variant gt3 over a 991 , purely for fun and to become a better 911 driver . In the I terests of fairness I can see how some may well prefer a 991 gt3 . The manic engine and gearbox response gives a unique buzz and the car is certainly faster than the 996/997 variants in the hands of the majority of drivers .

I think it comes down to personal preference in the end and a blanket statement that one is better than the other is difficult to prove . Each camp will never convince the other they are wrong .

I'm an old beard and I like old beard stuff . I ride around on a( literally) pink yzf750 for Gods sake .

Edited by wtdoom on Tuesday 24th February 20:26

[5517]

av185 said:

Not all 991 GT3 had 'new' engines.....mine and most post September 2014 cars benefitted from original factory engines....with the documentation to prove it......

How do you know they didn't just take yours out at the factory?

Im joking but it is amazing how the 2nd engine thing means nothing now and doesn't carry any stigma and has not created an extra premium for the later delivery cars.

I actually wrote a thread last March about how if I ever bought a used 991 GT3 I would dismiss all cars on engine 2 and only go for a later car. I was adamant!!!

8 months later I had forgotten I had even written that and happily stumped up a premium for a Jan 14 car on engine 2 and ... with the documentation to prove it

[APOLO1]

wtdoom said:

Thank you , Mate that's very kind of you and I am humbled .

I must add I have only driven a gt3 for a couple of hours . It's a very special car but there is a loss of interaction between the car and the driver . Traditional 911 methods of extracting speed like trail braking for example are less important . 991 is faster but certainly easier to extract the speed from too . I didn't want to be the first to say it but since others have made the point , I too given the choice would rather have a 996 or 997 variant gt3 over a 991 , purely for fun and to become a better 911 driver . In the I terests of fairness I can see how some may well prefer a 991 gt3 . The manic engine and gearbox response gives a unique buzz and the car is certainly faster than the 996/997 variants in the hands of the majority of drivers .

I think it comes down to personal preference in the end and a blanket statement that one is better than the other is difficult to prove . Each camp will never convince the other they are wrong .

I'm an old beard and I like old beard stuff . I ride around on a pink yzf750 for Gods sake .

just been out for a 30 min blast...

Genuinely feel that you can not detect the tech working in the back ground, the RWS, the Vectoring, the vector BTW( LSD aside) uses the same system as Mac, ie brake steer. Only the 918 and TTS have tricky stuff.

Imv, its the fact that the 991 drives very much like a mid engine car, due to platform and the way the engine mounts, rws,etc work, in the 997 its very old skool, ie slow in fast out, the 991 just turns faster very mid engine like.....

Is it better, well that's up to individual. No right or wrong answer to this....Just happy to enjoy em...

[Mermaid]

APOLO1 said:

Imv, its the fact that the 991 drives very much like a mid engine car, due to platform and the way the engine mounts, rws,etc work, in the 997 its very old skool, ie slow in fast out, the 991 just turns faster very mid engine like.....

Is it better, well that's up to individual. No right or wrong answer to this....Just happy to enjoy em...

A mediocre driver could drive the 991 GT3 very quickly, and why its appeal to some.

For others, including many on this thread, they would rather train to be a better driver and enjoy the iconic 911 foibles/attributes. And if that means going a little slower on track or road, the pleasure has just lasted longer.

[throt]

Mermaid said:

APOLO1 said:

Imv, its the fact that the 991 drives very much like a mid engine car, due to platform and the way the engine mounts, rws,etc work, in the 997 its very old skool, ie slow in fast out, the 991 just turns faster very mid engine like.....

Is it better, well that's up to individual. No right or wrong answer to this....Just happy to enjoy em...

A mediocre driver could drive the 991 GT3 very quickly, and why its appeal to some.

For others, including many on this thread, they would rather train to be a better driver and enjoy the iconic 911 foibles/attributes. And if that means going a little slower on track or road, the pleasure has just lasted longer.

2nd does suck though and I certainly don't enjoy coming second too..

[wtdoom]

APOLO1 said:

just been out for a 30 min blast...

Genuinely feel that you can not detect the tech working in the back ground, the RWS, the Vectoring, the vector BTW( LSD aside) uses the same system as Mac, ie brake steer. Only the 918 and TTS have tricky stuff.

Imv, its the fact that the 991 drives very much like a mid engine car, due to platform and the way the engine mounts, rws,etc work, in the 997 its very old skool, ie slow in fast out, the 991 just turns faster very mid engine like.....

Is it better, well that's up to individual. No right or wrong answer to this....Just happy to enjoy em...

I'm sorry apolo , Y O U Cannot detect the electronics working in the background . Others can .
Those plus points of yours (the car feeling mid engined etc) are MINUSES to the posters above . You lose the skill level required to extract the ultimate best from the car and tax the driver . Can you see what I mean ? ( sorry if I'm not explaining it properly ). I can come out to silverstone this weekend with you if you like . I'll bring an old girl and take you out in it then you drive her . For part 2 , then let me drive the 991 gt3 and I'll show you the differences . I wager in the 991 our times will be within seconds of each other , I bet I'm between 7/10 seconds faster than you in the old car I bring .

At least we can both agree there is no right or wrong answer . Both cars get to the same place but they take massively different routes .

Edited by wtdoom on Tuesday 24th February 20:53

[TheAnimal]

Mermaid said:

Most will not see see 4 digits on the odometer, and a very large percentage will enjoy 2nd owners in the 1st 3 months, or is that 1st 3 weeks.

Some will change owner at point of delivery... 150-200k over list should seal a deal

[wtdoom]

throt said:

2nd does suck though. I certainly don't enjoy coming second too..

No need to come second , they aren't race cars

[Richie200]

Nurburgsingh said:

Ex 991GT3 owner. I was completely blown away with the speed of the 991 the acceleration is relentless, the way it carries speed through twisties is amazing. It is just FAST.

and that for me was also the problem, thats all it is... FAST. for me it was nothing more.

The 7.2RS that replaced it is perhaps not as fast, but it is epic in every other way. It's more engaging, there isn't anything 'fake' about it. ( I'm not convinced that the chatter in the 991 wasn't engineered in as an after thought) You need two feet and two hands to make the RS work, you know you're in something special, even the wiggling of the gear knob before turning the key feels 'right'.

I am in no way knocking the 991, I believe it is progress personified. Progress makes things easy... for me the 991GT3 is not dissimilar to the Nissan GTR, and its not for me.

This just about sums it up perfectly for me. The 991GTR is the better car when measured by conventional top-trumps type metrics. But on every other level the 997 is in a completely different league. I just cannot see how the synthesized later variant can even be compared with the greatness that is the 997. I do not need to drive the auto to know that it will not provide the tactility and complete engagement that the 997 delivers like no other.
I really appreciate and understand what the 991GT3 is all about and fully get why it has it's myriad followers. It is just not the platform from which my personal hoonage fix can be quenched.

Straying a little way off topic to get that off my chest now mind

The 991GT3 is now attaining stratospheric values, £180K now I believe. Bearing this in mind, the base spec 991RS is expected to be around £45k list price more than the GT3. Generally RS variants of the past have progressively stretched away from the normal GT3 prices by some margin. I personally see the 991GT3RS retaining it's £45K margin above the GT3 as an absolute minimum, so as it currently stands, that would equate to around a £200-220K price at launch. Factor in the press coverage; that will no doubt hail this an apocalyptic game-changer, rendering all challengers at up to double this price point not worthy, I have no idea where this will take asking prices... Any here more informed than I like to hazard a guess???

Edited by Richie200 on Tuesday 24th February 20:53

[av185]

5517 said:

av185 said:

Not all 991 GT3 had 'new' engines.....mine and most post September 2014 cars benefitted from original factory engines....with the documentation to prove it......

How do you know they didn't just take yours out at the factory?

Im joking but it is amazing how the 2nd engine thing means nothing now and doesn't carry any stigma and has not created an extra premium for the later delivery cars.

I actually wrote a thread last March about how if I ever bought a used 991 GT3 I would dismiss all cars on engine 2 and only go for a later car. I was adamant!!!

8 months later I had forgotten I had even written that and happily stumped up a premium for a Jan 14 car on engine 2 and ... with the documentation to prove it

Nice try but 'factory fresh' unmolested and 2015 model cars will inevitably attract the ultimate premiums although clearly all, especially good spec will tend to be desirable due to the sheer talent of the car and limited numbers........

[APOLO1]

Mermaid said:

A mediocre driver could drive the 991 GT3 very quickly, and why its appeal to some.

For others, including many on this thread, they would rather train to be a better driver and enjoy the iconic 911 foibles/attributes. And if that means going a little slower on track or road, the pleasure has just lasted longer.

I agree M, I make my mates look like they had stopped for "Latte", at Woodcote corner, but the 991 also rewards the skilled driver, to another level, put simply the 997 just does not have the tools to sit along side.

There is very good article in Evo on this point this month.......

[wtdoom]

APOLO1 said:

I agree M, I make my mates look like they had stopped for "Latte", at Woodcote corner, but the 991 also rewards the skilled driver, to another level, put simply the 997 just does not have the tools to sit along side.

There is very good article in Evo on this point this month.......

I defy this comment and if evo said this I defy them too .sir knight ! In fact I'll put my 4.0 against your 991 gt3 at the time and trackday of your choosing .

The gauntlet is thrown sah !

[APOLO1]

Richie200 said:

This just about sums it up perfectly for me. The 991GTR is the better car when measured by conventional top-trumps type metrics. But on every other level the 997 is in a completely different league. I just cannot see how the synthesized later variant can even be compared with the greatness that is the 997. I do not need to drive the auto to know that it will not provide the tactility and complete engagement that the 997 delivers like no other.
I really appreciate and understand what the 991GT3 is all about and fully get why it has it's myriad followers. It is just not the platform from which my personal hoonage fix can be quenched.

Straying a little way off topic to get that off my chest now mind
The 991GT3 is now attaining stratospheric values, £180K now I believe. Bearing this in mind, the base spec 991RS is expected to be around £45k list price more than the GT3. Generally RS variants of the past have progressively stretched away from the normal GT3 prices by some margin. I personally see the 991GT3RS retaining it's £45K margin above the GT3 as an absolute minimum, so in as it currently stands, that would equate to around a £200-220K price at launch. Factor in the press coverage; that will no doubt hail this an apocalyptic game-changer, rendering all challengers at up to double this price point not worthy and I have no idea where this will take asking prices... Any here more informed than I like to hazard a guess???

Back to this LHD RHD price point for moment, I was chatting to an OPC is Eu today, about prices ect. I showed him the 180k car.........He thought it was for 2.......I kid you not..

[Mermaid]

APOLO1 said:

...but the 991 also rewards the skilled driver, to another level, put simply the 997 just does not have the tools to sit along side.

There is very good article in Evo on this point this month.......

No doubt, but my focus was on the tool-less 997 & the mediocre driver.

Have you driven the 4.0RS & the 991 GT3 at Silverstone, back to back? And the gap?
Would the gap be smaller in the hands of a profi driver?


Will look out for the Evo article?

[APOLO1]

Mermaid said:

No doubt, but my focus was on the tool-less 997 & the mediocre driver.

Have you driven the 4.0RS & the 991 GT3 at Silverstone, back to back? And the gap?
Would the gap be smaller in the hands of a profi driver?


Will look out for the Evo article?

No M, not done that.....happy to admit that been spoiled with the PDKs over the past few years...what's the ring time between the 2...

there is also a nice article in I think motor trend, road and track, said that when pressed in the right hands the GT3 performance is very close to that of the Cup Car, have a look the CH vid, the Walter R one about the GT3 etc, from what I recall they could not feel the rws engaging....

[wtdoom]

The gt3 is very close to a cup car quote needs explaining further mate . If you are talking times you are losing massive credibility here . People on this part of PH know their stuff .

The ring time between the two is less than 2 seconds
At the ring that could be any number of variables . Don't forget tyre technology .

Take my friendly wager , I'm on cup 2s same as the 991 in 7 days . 4.0 is lighter , more powerful , has more torque , at least the same aero , rose jointed suspension and now tyres as good as the 991 . I bet the cup 2 is worth more than 2 seconds at the ring and is enough to make the 4.0 faster round silverstone .

Come on Bennett , let's party

Edited by wtdoom on Tuesday 24th February 21:37

[APOLO1]

wtdoom said:

The gt3 is very close to a cup car quote needs explaining further mate . If you are talking times you are losing massive credibility here . People on this part of PH know their stuff .

The ring time between the two is less than 2 seconds
At the ring that could be any number of variables . Don't forget tyre technology .

Take my friendly wager , I'm on cup 2s same as the 991 in 7 days . 4.0 is lighter , more powerful , has more torque , at least the same aero , rose jointed suspension and now tyres as good as the 991 . I bet the cup 2 is worth more than 2 seconds at the ring and is enough to make the 4.0 faster round silverstone .

Come on Bennett , let's party

Edited by wtdoom on Tuesday 24th February 21:37

I have zero time a Cup car, quoting direct from a US article...

[wtdoom]

APOLO1 said:

I have zero time a Cup car, quoting direct from a US article...

And what of the newer tyre point and the 2 seconds at the ring ? I genuinely am convinced the new cup is worth more than 2 seconds at the ring .

[keep it lit]

APOLO1 said:

what's the ring time between the 2...

said that when pressed in the right hands the GT3 performance is very close to that of the Cup Car

997 CUP (slicks) ring time around 7mins

[LaurasOtherHalf]

keep it lit said:

Mermaid said:

andy74b said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Huge premiums on brand new luxury and sports cars, just like '88

Not many new cars have premiums. Mclaren 12c and Ferrari 458 way under list now. 991 turbos are discounted. New hurracan already dropped below. Very different from 88. People buying quality now not anything as before.

quality stuff - 959 and the F40 - did trade at premiums in the late 80's, and then suffered a near 80% fall in value in subsequent years.

When ( if) the st comes down the mountain, the finest Orchids will get splattered too.

new 930s were well over £100k+.... two months later less than £30k.

folk scrambling (with legal help) to get out of their deposited XJ220, which in the end, they actually paid £1000s NOT to take the car.

they are many many tales....

I'd hardly call a 458 or a 12C brand new-you suggesting the new berlinetta won't have a premium when it hits the market Andy?

As everyone else says, history will repeat itself. The bubbles getting bigger, those gambling on the game better make sure they're getting good advice of when to get out before it bursts